Transit Service Discussion (Articulated/Conventional/Shuttle/Skytrain/Seabus)

[cleowin]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss all service levels within the Translink subsidiaries. My questions to you are:

1) What Routes should get more service? Or lose more service?

2) Any specific routes that would work better with articulated buses? Any articulated routes that don't even need them?

3) Any specific routes that would benefit from Community Shuttles over conventional buses?

My First question to you is: Would the 130 METROTOWN/CAP U/PHIBBS EXCHANGE/KOOTENAY LOOP/TO HASTINGS be more beneficial running on articulated buses? Is it even possible? What changes would need to be done for this to be possible?

[Meraki]

The 25 Brentwood Stn is so overloaded right now morning peak hours that it's impossible to get on after Nanaimo.

I've long given up trying to get onto it, even with 6 minute frequency. I have to take the SkyTrain to Brentwood and start at the terminus to get on.

My First question to you is: Would the 130 METROTOWN/CAP U/PHIBBS EXCHANGE/KOOTENAY LOOP/TO HASTINGS be more beneficial running on articulated buses? Is it even possible? What changes would need to be done for this to be possible?

Perhaps a few articulated trippers at most, specifically between 2 and 4pm towards Metrotown. Aside from that, I haven't really seen situations where it needs artics.

As for the technical possibility, I can't think of anywhere along the route that would cause problems for artics, though they'd need to increase the 'no parking' zones around bus stops. I'm not too knowledgable on the trip from Kootenay to Cap U, so other people are free to comment.

[translink]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss all service levels within the Translink subsidiaries. My questions to you are:

1) What Routes should get more service? Or lose more service?

2) Any specific routes that would work better with articulated buses? Any articulated routes that don't even need them?

3) Any specific routes that would benefit from Community Shuttles over conventional buses?

My First question to you is: Would the 130 METROTOWN/CAP U/PHIBBS EXCHANGE/KOOTENAY LOOP/TO HASTINGS be more beneficial running on articulated buses? Is it even possible? What changes would need to be done for this to be possible?

Ok, as nice as that would be. A few issues have to be resolved.

1) Length of Stop at Metrotown.

2) Length of Stop at Phibbs Exchange.

3) Extra Buses

4) NIMBY's.

5) translink funding.

6) well... there is no 6.

Anyway you slice it, it'd be like wishing for artics on the 410. It won't happen. You're more likely to find artics put on the 106 in the future.

As for routes that need more service... I can give you several. 430, 407, 405, 480 and most routes in Surrey. And no the 321 and 502 already have enough service, so those don't count.

Conventional routes being swapped for shuttles; yes I can think of two. 112 from New West to Lougheed and 388. I'm not trying to sound bitter here, but... till I hear translink gaining more funding. I'm not holding any hopes on anything.

But... as for conventional routes needing artics. There's one south Burnaby route that needs it. 106, every day of the week. Between the 99 and the 106, those are the money maker's for BTC, and maybe the 145 and 135, plus the 130. But, remember articulated buses need an extra long bay. They would either have to redesign loops, or move bus stops or do both.

I would however say, if translink was smart. The lower used routes could have shuttles using them till a certain point is reached then, they move over to conventional and then eventually artics. And if you're really lucky - you get skytrain. Nevergreen line anyone?

- Bryan "Goggles"

[Citaro]

Conventional routes being swapped for shuttles; yes I can think of two. 112 from New West to Lougheed and 388. I'm not trying to sound bitter here, but... till I hear translink gaining more funding. I'm not holding any hopes on anything.

- Bryan "Goggles"

According to the Transit-Vancouver Yahoo Group, the 112 will become the C9 between Lougheed and New Westminster; it is to my understanding that the 112 will be kept conventional between Edmonds and New Westminster.

Additionally, some separate sources at BTC indicate that the 116 will be operated by Community Shuttles all day on weekends and holidays; there are rumours that the 116 will eventually become all-Community Shuttle, running conventional only at peak hours.

[cleowin]

Ok, as nice as that would be. A few issues have to be resolved.

1) Length of Stop at Metrotown.

2) Length of Stop at Phibbs Exchange.

3) Extra Buses

4) NIMBY's.

5) translink funding.

6) well... there is no 6.

Anyway you slice it, it'd be like wishing for artics on the 410. It won't happen. You're more likely to find artics put on the 106 in the future.

As for routes that need more service... I can give you several. 430, 407, 405, 480 and most routes in Surrey. And no the 321 and 502 already have enough service, so those don't count.

Conventional routes being swapped for shuttles; yes I can think of two. 112 from New West to Lougheed and 388. I'm not trying to sound bitter here, but... till I hear translink gaining more funding. I'm not holding any hopes on anything.

But... as for conventional routes needing artics. There's one south Burnaby route that needs it. 106, every day of the week. Between the 99 and the 106, those are the money maker's for BTC, and maybe the 145 and 135, plus the 130. But, remember articulated buses need an extra long bay. They would either have to redesign loops, or move bus stops or do both.

I would however say, if translink was smart. The lower used routes could have shuttles using them till a certain point is reached then, they move over to conventional and then eventually artics. And if you're really lucky - you get skytrain. Nevergreen line anyone?

- Bryan "Goggles"

The 106 is definitely a route that needs them.. I can see that for sure. I remember getting on at EB Kingsway @ NS Royal Oak AV every Saturday/Sunday around 3 PM And I'd have to wait for a couple busses before I got on and i'd actually be standing crowded near the front till about Salisbury AV.

[translink]

According to the Transit-Vancouver Yahoo Group, the 112 will become the C9 between Lougheed and New Westminster; it is to my understanding that the 112 will be kept conventional between Edmonds and New Westminster.

Additionally, some separate sources at BTC indicate that the 116 will be operated by Community Shuttles all day on weekends and holidays; there are rumors that the 116 will eventually become all-Community Shuttle, running conventional only at peak hours.

Well... I'll be. Translink is finally doing something right. , so I lose my direct link to Lougheed, meh. As for the 116, yea I can see that. It's dead through the industrial zone till you hit the strip mall on marine way.

The 106 is definitely a route that needs them.. I can see that for sure. I remember getting on at EB Kingsway @ NS Royal Oak AV every Saturday/Sunday around 3 PM And I'd have to wait for a couple busses before I got on and i'd actually be standing crowded near the front till about Salisbury AV.

Yep, its bad enough that the 106 during peak hours on weekdays still ends up down 5 or 10 and sometimes even 20 minutes when it snows, by the time it hits new west.

- Bryan "Goggles"

[cleowin]

Well... I'll be. Translink is finally doing something right. , so I lose my direct link to Lougheed, meh. As for the 116, yea I can see that. It's dead through the industrial zone till you hit the strip mall on marine way.

Yep, its bad enough that the 106 during peak hours on weekdays still ends up down 5 or 10 and sometimes even 20 minutes when it snows, by the time it hits new west.

- Bryan "Goggles"

Two friday's ago at 2 30 PM even at WB Kingsway @ SB Royal Oak Av I had to wait 30 Minutes for a 106 METROTOWN STN. There was 3 of them lined up all together when they came, all packed.

[Orion VIII]

Thank you all for avoiding the common misconception that articulated buses require a larger area in which to turn, while noting that they require extended bus stops due to their length. Excellent analysis.

[cleowin]

Thank you all for avoiding the common misconception that articulated buses require a larger area in which to turn, while noting that they require extended bus stops due to their length. Excellent analysis.

Someone's grumpy in the morning

I know a couple stops along Kingsway that would need to be changed/moved such as EB Kingsway at NB Nelson AV and at places such as Kingsway @ Sperling AV/Salisbury AV/etc.

[MCW Metrobus]

Between the 99 and the 106, those are the money maker's for BTC...

I don't see how this can be possible, since the 99 is just a welcome mat for fare evaders with its all-door boarding, and the 106... well, how many of the 106-riding riff raff bother to pay a fare anyway?

[StormThief24]

As much as I would love the 410 to get articulated buses, I happened to talk with an RTC driver who was on the safety board about a year ago. Apparently, the 410 terminus at Steveston is far too short for articulated buses (it's too short for 40-footers as it is!) with 4 40-footers often stacked up on layover. And if a bus gets B/O'd.... Also, apparently, they can't move the terminus because of the NIMBYs in Steveston, also known as the stuck-up bastards who has never had to experience 3 410s stacked up through Fraserwood where the first bus is so crowded you can barely BREATHE.

Then, there's the 407 and 430. If the morons in the scheduling department bumped the 407 up to half-hour service and staggered the departure times, then you could have 15-minute service down Garden City Road and Bridgeport Road. However, because it would make too much SENSE, and would require a positively amazing service increase of one bus, it will never happen.

Even less likely to happen is 15-minute service on the 430, even though my all-time FAVOURITE game at Metrotown Station is "Guess the Lineup". How to play? Go to Metrotown Station between 4-7pm any day of the week. If you get there even 10 minutes before the bus is supposed to leave, the lineup will be so long, you have to guess which line is for the 110/430 and which one is for the 116! But a boy can dream of a land where this doesn't happen....

[323 Surrey Ctrl Stn]

Here's my two cents, give drivers more running time to complete their routes during the day and reduce times at night. I'm sure if every bus in the system was perect on time the system wouldn't be as crowded. I know a huge problem in Surrey is buses getting bunched up and backed up at Surrey Central.

On the flip side, the majority of night runs have too much time. 99% of the time it takes less time for a bus to get from A to B at 1am compared to 1pm, so why are the times nearly identical?

Chris Cassidy

[Modulator]

I think the 15 Cambie should be Community Shuttle weekday midday and late evenings, and all day on weekends/holidays. At 15 minute service, there are SOMETIMES 20 people on the buses during the off-peak times (which could fit on a shuttle). That's with the route still going downtown. With it shortening at Broadway in April, I think it will kill pretty much all the ridership on it, and you could easily run the shuttles during the off-peak hours. I would still keep conventional buses during the peak hours, because it is busier and to back-up the Canada Line in case there are any issues.

Effective with the April sheet the 15 will be reduced to 15 minute daytime and 20 minute evening service, and combined with the 50 (which already runs every 15 minutes during the day and will be increased to 20 at night). South of 16th it'll probably continue to be pretty quiet, but a direct link to Granville Island might attract some new riders if it were marketed well enough.

The April schedules for the 15 and 50 appear to be done already. Those with strong deductive reasoning skills will figure out how to get the weekend schedules (and any other route of interest)...

I don't think the 8 needs artics at any times -- it could be converted back to 40-foot buses and the service increased slightly. I have NEVER ridden on a crowded 8 since its conversion to artic, and I have ridden them during many different times of day -- peak hours peak direction, midday, and weekends. Then, the artics could be put on the 10 for selected trips during the peak hours (or maybe all trips during the weekdays). Of course, this would likely mean that there would be an excess of 60-foot trolleys and a shortage of 40-foot trolleys, so they may be better off to link the 8 and the 10 with artics. This way there would likely be enough trolleys to eventually run the 41 with them again, once there is enough funding to beef up the 43 and to extend the trolley wires along Marine to Victoria.

The 8 carries pretty solid crowds a lot of the time but, yes, it's certainly quieter than the 3 and 20. The widened headways that appeared after artics were introduced seem to have scared some riders away.

The Granville and Fraser lines have approximately the same running time from Downtown to the end of the line and back. What I'd do is put artics on Granville and 40-footers on Fraser--and then interline the Granville and Victoria lines (with a whole bunch of transit priority measures on both corridors). South Granville could use the extra service (especially with the removal of the 17 Oak from the Granville Bridge) and the marketing opportunities that would come with the new 20 Granville/Victoria are too much to resist ("double the number, double the bus").

Actually, what I'd really do is leave the artics on the 8, buy another batch of artic trolleys for the Granville route and put the displaced 40-foot trolleys on the 41 (once the 43 becomes a B-line) and a new ring route between the West End and Yaletown (Denman-Robson-Cambie-Pacific-Davie in both directions) replacing the C23. But that's perhaps getting into the realm of fantasy...

The next thing I was going to mention I understand is being done for the April sheet. I was going to say that there is too much service on Hastings St, and that they could cut the 10 off from Hastings. My original thought was to run alternating trips down Hastings, and the others to Downtown only. According to Transit-Vancouver, they will re-introduce route 14 and have it travel along Hastings and replace the western leg of the 17 as well out to UBC. So we will have the 14 UBC/Hastings during the day and 14 UBC/Downtown during the evenings. I think this should have been done at the opening of the Canada Line since Granville was going to need more service, but Hastings wasn't necessarily going to need that much of an increase. I am pretty sure that the 14 will run at about 10 minute frequencies during the peak hours and about 12 during the midday. Currently, the 10 runs 7-8 in the AM peak, 10 minutes until noon, then back to 7-8 again in the afternoon.

The new 14 schedule (EB and WB) appears to be (almost) done (they haven't quite figured out the transition into the evening service, so there's a gap going westbound that needs to be corrected).

The Granville and Oak schedules aren't done yet. I'm curious what route they're going to follow Downtown--the 17 will probably just take over the 15's route (Cambie-Hamilton-Robson-Granville-Pender-Cambie), but the Pender-Homer-Hastings routing that the 10 follows in the evenings isn't ideal during the day (and if the Robson Square mess is still going on and the 5 is still using Homer, it'll be a complete zoo). I'd vote for Cordova-Richards-Pender, but we'll see what they come up with.

[VancouversLocalNerd]

239 in North Van should be running with artics during peak hours, however during midday 10 minute service seems a bit excessive, I've heard the route described as a the "bus vacuum".

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

239 in North Van should be running with artics during peak hours, however during midday 10 minute service seems a bit excessive, I've heard the route described as a the "bus vacuum".

Are the bus bays inside the Lonsdale Quay Terminal long enough to handle 60 footers?

[VancouversLocalNerd]

Are the bus bays inside the Lonsdale Quay Terminal long enough to handle 60 footers?

Probably not, most certainly not the way they have the 239 stop set up now, although there are more bays than are really needed there so it would be a fairly easy modification to make, Phibbs might be harder though as they actually use all of the bays there all the time... of course the rollsigns for the D60s apparently had both "Cap College" and "Upper Lynn Valley" on them so I'm guessing they had a plan... maybe.

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

Probably not, most certainly not the way they have the 239 stop set up now, although there are more bays than are really needed there so it would be a fairly easy modification to make, Phibbs might be harder though as the actually use all of the bays there all the time... of course the rollsigns for the D60s apparently had both "Cap College" and "Upper Lynn Valley" on them so I'm guessing they had a plan... maybe.

Ah yes. I had not thought about Phibbs Exchange yet. I can see that being a problem for 60 footers as well.

[Dane]

Phibbs and some stops in the City of N Van cannot accomodate 60 foot buses. Lonsdale Quay is "convertable." Artics got tested on the 239 in 2008 with little issue, except those I mentioned.

Not sure who mentioned 10 minute headway on the 239 being excessive, but I welcome you to visit the North Shore <G>

[SidneyTransitfan]

I will add my comments to this section now too.

I think the 15 Cambie should be Community Shuttle weekday midday and late evenings, and all day on weekends/holidays. At 15 minute service, there are SOMETIMES 20 people on the buses during the off-peak times (which could fit on a shuttle). That's with the route still going downtown. With it shortening at Broadway in April, I think it will kill pretty much all the ridership on it, and you could easily run the shuttles during the off-peak hours. I would still keep conventional buses during the peak hours, because it is busier and to back-up the Canada Line in case there are any issues.

I would have to disagree for the most part... Currently the only way to effectively get to places between Canada Line stops is to take the 15. Such destinations include 16th and 33rd Avenues, and not to mention the other. As I see it, Route 15 should mainly be operated by the Transit Museum buses. Transport for London near-exclusively operates the remaining old Routemaster buses on Route 9 and 15, so I believe a similar operation should happen with Vancouver's Route 15. Although, as for short-turning the route to Broadway (Or perhaps Olympic Village), that I can see as a good idea.

[VancouversLocalNerd]

Phibbs and some stops in the City of N Van cannot accomodate 60 foot buses. Lonsdale Quay is "convertable." Artics got tested on the 239 in 2008 with little issue, except those I mentioned.

Not sure who mentioned 10 minute headway on the 239 being excessive, but I welcome you to visit the North Shore <G>

It was me, I live here and take the 239 everyday, 15 minute service was fine during midday, the 10 minute service thing is only a couple months old. The 239 needs higher capacity per trip, not more trips, especially with NVTC in the state it's in, any more buses get transferred here and they'll have to park them on the street... really the only reason not to atricify (is that a word?) the 239 is they got nowhere in North Van to keep em and BTC can't spare any.

(Note: I like having 10 minute service on the 239 but I'd also like having 3 mansions and a Ferrari... just don't need it)

Anyway another service change that NEEDS to happen is VTC (or use OTC if there isn't room) needs diesel artics, for use on artic trolley routes if they have to be dieselized, getting crammed into a nova on the 3 isn't fun and running 2 buses per trip is just a waste. Yes they only had 40 footers prior to the E60LFRs but it was a problem even back then and ridership has gone up since.

[translink fan]

hmmmm I'd say the 16 on the 2:30-3:00 pm rush after school. Theres already 1 school special on it but it still really gets crush loads. translink could atleast run 1 artics on there for a trip atleast. but translink don't have the funds for it!

[transitfan]

One route that I think that needs to be severed is the 22 Knight/MacDonald.

There is to much service for Knight and not enough for the Kits/MacDonald corridor. Right now it has 5-7 minutes service during peak hours which is to much for Knight street. I think it could be 7-9 minutes or even 10 minutes on Knight street and whatever resources are left over put on through Kits.

I say have the 22 be Knight/Downtown and then have the 2 be just a MacDonald. The 2 really does not need to go down 16th as the 33 can service the small portion of 16th but maybe still have every third bus or so only go to 16th during peak hours only.

I also think the 32 should be finished. I do not know what it is like during the am peak going down Dunbar but in the pm peak it usually half empty going up Dunbar. Only time I have noticed it really busy is if there has not been a 7 for awhile. Take whatever buses that the 32 uses and put them on the 2.

[A. Wong]

As someone who has stayed along the 22 I appreciate the service on the route.

I don't know if this is still the case, but I remember that only every second trip went to Terminal Ave or something like that... is this the reason for the frequent service along most of the route?

[cleowin]

Seems like the case study is the Vancouver region, especailly the Trolley Network.

Theres really only one route I want to emphasize in Burnaby: The 144. I think due to the fact it services SFU/Sperling STN/Metrotown STN that it should have increased service of 20 Minutes Saturday/Sunday during the busier periods of the day. Some may disagree, but half hour service on that route all weekend long? Doesn't really make much sense.

[Millennium2002]

Knight Street service... good thing you mention as I'm a regular commuter.

As I see it, there's a bit of an issue at the moment with scheduling... when I usually leave the house at 7 in the morning I generally encounter two 22s after another with a minute or less of separation, one towards Downtown only and the other towards Macdonald via Terminal. The first bus (Mcd via T) is usually full, the second... maybe a bit deserted. =O

Maybe you could take a few buses that run the deserted shuttles and shuffle them over to the other end of the network (and your ideas for 32 and 2 integration to 2 sounds good as well) but that could possibly leave Chinatown without service... although I frankly haven't seen a lot of people head that way based on the emptiness of the Downtown shuttles compared to the Terminal deviations.

In addition, as a SFU student I consider the service to SFU to be horrendous and should be replaced with a gondola! =P Unfortunately the transit attendant I spoke to at Production Way Stn today wasn't so supportive of that idea (nor was he friendly about SkyTrain either, ironically enough).