Transit Service Discussion (Articulated/Conventional/Shuttle/Skytrain/Seabus)

[Unloading Only]

53 minutes ago, GORDOOM said:

But if that's the case, they're not living in the real world. In the real world, book-outs are made from anything you can push, pull, or drag out of the yard, and maintaining subfleets only makes that harder. Maintaining a subfleet purely for branding purposes is IMO a luxury TransLink cannot afford right now.

At least with andrewjoystick's design, it wouldn't feel so un-natural to see that branding on other routes on occasion. Many of the D60LF today are painted in a B-Line livery and often used on non-B-Line routes. Imo the green livery would make that 100 times worse. I agree that it seems like a silly sacrifice to make from an operations standpoint for a little bit of branding.

 

40 minutes ago, Brando737 said:

There are lots of changes in progress right now to improve the transit system as a whole and customer image is a major one.  There are ways to manage a sub fleet for certain services and that could be one reason why they are reassessing all the depot's for how many busses they can hold and if they can add more than originally measured.  Keep in mind, all new artics coming are for the B-Line's which will displace a number of 40 footers so that will create some room.  Also at BTC North where the artics are stored the big building that runs along the length of most of the property is for facility maintenance so if the money is there they could put those departments on other properties or locations to take down the building and make room for several more buses.

September 2019 will most likely see a shuffle of several routes between depots which will help with this as well.  I believe they are wanting all depot's to be 100% within 2 year's.

TransLink / CMBC have always seemed to me like they really have things together, at least compared with other transit agencies I know. Besides service expansion, I can't really think of much they could improve. TransLink's branding, and customer satisfaction with transit service in this region is amazing compared with most other places I've seen. Hopefully things will keep getting even better (but please no green buses).

[Urban_96]

18 hours ago, andrewjoystick said:

I've been experimenting with a few options using the lines of the current Sweep-R livery, what do you guys think of these?

I love those liveries!!! That second one is more like the old one. 

[Urban_96]

On September 10, 2018 at 12:50 AM, TranslinkKid said:

Amazing!!!!!

What do you predict (or know) the Winter service changes will be about?

[translink]

On 9/10/2018 at 7:40 PM, andrewjoystick said:

Like this?

Honestly I like this design the most. It’s like a cross between the old scheme and the new orange on the wayfinding signs. But personally I’d ditch the charcoal and make it white or silver. But I definitely like it!

[8010]

Our trolleys are due for replacement in 2024.

[cleowin]

42 minutes ago, 8010 said:

Our trolleys are due for replacement in 2024.

They have a 20 year life span, and knowing translink, they’ll keep them operating for 22-25 years, so i dont expect the earliest replacements until 2026-2028

[8010]

49 minutes ago, cleowin said:

They have a 20 year life span, and knowing translink, they’ll keep them operating for 22-25 years, so i dont expect the earliest replacements until 2026-2028

That does sound like the typical TransLink we all know, but this is from the email I recieved yesterday.

[cleowin]

2 minutes ago, 8010 said:

That does sound like the typical TransLink we all know, but this is from the email I recieved yesterday.

Sounds like the plan is for just a direct trolley for trolley replacement? Assuming xcelsior is the current branding for nfi, i expect xt40’s?

[8010]

8 minutes ago, cleowin said:

Sounds like the plan is for just a direct trolley for trolley replacement? Assuming xcelsior is the current branding for nfi, i expect xt40’s?

That's what it sounds like, XT40s and XT60s would be replacing the existing E40LFRs and E60LFRs. The email is pretty vague but I wouldn't be surprised if the replacements are trolley for trolley.

[GORDOOM]

39 minutes ago, 8010 said:

That's what it sounds like, XT40s and XT60s would be replacing the existing E40LFRs and E60LFRs. The email is pretty vague but I wouldn't be surprised if the replacements are trolley for trolley.

Depending on how the electric bus tests go, I would suspect they'd order XE40s instead. But I also have no expectation of seeing the E40LFRs retired for at least another decade.

[Express691]

There's a rumour in a report for the Madison G-Line RapidRide in Seattle that claims that NFI is planning to discontinue their trolley bus lineup in favour of their battery-electric lineup.

[Ninja Bus Fan]

47 minutes ago, 8010 said:

That's what it sounds like, XT40s and XT60s would be replacing the existing E40LFRs and E60LFRs. The email is pretty vague but I wouldn't be surprised if the replacements are trolley for trolley.

From what I was told the XT40’s and XT60’s is being discontinued after the Muni order. 

[cleowin]

51 minutes ago, Ninja Bus Fan said:

From what I was told the XT40’s and XT60’s is being discontinued after the Muni order. 

That’s devastating news, they should still allow custom orders 

[GORDOOM]

1 hour ago, Ninja Bus Fan said:

From what I was told the XT40’s and XT60’s is being discontinued after the Muni order. 

What exactly does this mean? The XT40/XT60 were basically custom buses for King County Metro anyway, on which order Muni piggy-backed. Or do you mean that NFI won't do any more trolleybus projects anymore? What about something like an XTE60 using In-Motion Charging?

[Michael Marriott]

Important context for the Seattle/New Flyer trolley situation.  The rumor is that New Flyer doesn't want to build a one off order of 12 buses with several unique features (motors on both the centre and rear axles, as well as driver side doors for island platforms).  That is just a rumor, other rumors say Seattle may have to pay significantly more than was budgeted.  New Flyer would likely have little issue for a hypothetical 250 to 300 bus order for Vancouver.

[Dane]

1 hour ago, Michael Marriott said:

New Flyer would likely have little issue for a hypothetical 250 to 300 bus order for Vancouver.

Exactly... Personally I think battery buses could very well be advanced enough by then to make this the last generation of trolley. However, if that is not the case, Vancouver would surely order enough to lead to bids - there were no readily available trolleys "off the  shelf for the last order". 

[Urban_96]

12 hours ago, cleowin said:

Sounds like the plan is for just a direct trolley for trolley replacement? Assuming xcelsior is the current branding for nfi, i expect xt40’s?

I wish they replaced them sooner but I am quite happy that they will replace them at some point soon!!! Yes, XT40 and XT60 are the current NFI trolley models. I will tell you how they feel when I take them in Seattle in a week.

[Brando737]

I hate to say it, but the current trolleys may be the last trolleys Vancouver has.  I come to this thought based on cost of the infrastructure and the obvious possibility that New Flyer may no longer offer them as an option.  Translink seems to want greener equipment and overall operations and while trolleys are great for that, "free roaming" electric buses are the better and possibly cheaper option.  For example, on days where trolley routes are required to reroute off the wires, diesel buses are used which increases pollution output and cost of fuel.  If they replace the trolley's with the new electric buses coming available then there is no worry of those routes needing to detour either planned or caused by incidents throughout the day.  

I love trolleys and want them to always be a part of Vancouver, but the reality of the situation is buses such as the XE40's are much more reliable and possibly cheaper than trolleys.

[martin607]

11 hours ago, Brando737 said:

... "free roaming" electric buses are the better and possibly cheaper option.  For example, on days where trolley routes are required to reroute off the wires, diesel buses are used which increases pollution output and cost of fuel.  If they replace the trolley's with the new electric buses coming available then there is no worry of those routes needing to detour either planned or caused by incidents throughout the day.  

I love trolleys and want them to always be a part of Vancouver, but the reality of the situation is buses such as the XE40's are much more reliable and possibly cheaper than trolleys.

On your specific point about flexibility, that issue could easily be dealt with by a new generation of trolleybuses with In Motion Charging. In Europe these typically have a battery range of between 10km and 20km depending on the size of the city. So when there are special events,  trolleybuses can easily operate on detours. 

You may be right that the purchase price of the XE 40 is now lower than the $1 m that used to be quoted and for a notional new trolleybus order. As for operating costs, we should always compare like with like. Is there any evidence that the XE 40s are much more reliable than the XT 40s currently being delivered to San Francisco? Do the XE 40s have much of a track record in real-time passenger service on heavy duty routes? I understand that 5 XE 40s are on a 3 year trial in New York and similarly there will trials in Toronto. More important of course will be Translink's own trials on route 100.

[martin607]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:21 PM, GORDOOM said:

Depending on how the electric bus tests go, I would suspect they'd order XE40s instead. But I also have no expectation of seeing the E40LFRs retired for at least another decade.

I fear your suspicion is correct.

While there should be a future for battery electric buses in many roles, there is still a lot going for trolleybuses on heavy duty operations in the form of a battery-trolleybus hybrid. There are plenty of studies in Europe that show a city with an existing trolleybus system would be best advised to move to this "Trolley 2.0" with In Motion Charging rather than change to battery buses. Battery buses with overnight charging suffer a heavy weight penalty and sometimes unpredictable range, while buses using opportunity charging have lower productivity because of all the downtown from on-route charging. 

While Trolley 2.0 gets a fair hearing in the European trade press, there seems to be a media blackout in North America -it's battery bus or nothing.

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 4:28 PM, Ninja Bus Fan said:

From what I was told the XT40’s and XT60’s is being discontinued after the Muni order. 

Do you have a direct source for this? I ask because I may myself have contributed the spread of this rumour by posting this on the King County Metro thread. My source was a freelance transit planner but he couldn't actually quote anything official from New Flyer.

Whether it's official or not, it seems clear that New Flyer wants to promote what it sees as a potential mass market bus like the Xcelsior Charge XE 40 and XE 60, rather than a niche market product like a trolleybus. For example New Flyer is currently delivering 185 XT 40 trolleys to San Francisco but they never tweet about this, but they will tweet about a small order of 5 or 10 XE 40 to somewhere in the Midwest.

[Express691]

Link

http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2018/08/speaking-of-seattle-transit-bumps-officials-sorting-madison-bus-rapid-transit-trolley-problem/

Arguably Seattle has quite steep trolley routes. If anyone's taken the 3 or the 4, you will know.

[8010]

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-light-rail-transit-41st-avenue

[Thomasw]

1 hour ago, 8010 said:

http://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-light-rail-transit-41st-avenue

First the Surrey LRT, then this. What next an LRT along kingsway.

What is with Vancouver and loving LRT

The b-line hasn't even begun operation along 41st, why l we all of a sudden need an LRT. I believe they should see how the b-line goes and then they should make the decision for an upgrade like for example; more frenquency or even maybe hi-articulate busses but not and LRT.

Currently there is not enough demand for and LRT on 41st. maybe in about 10 years there will be enough demand for bi-articulate busses but LRT is too much and a waste of money and time. Also the roads in Kerrisdale between West boulevard and Larch street is way too narrow for there to Ben a train track in the middle of the road. 

[buizelbus]

31 minutes ago, Thomasw said:

First the Surrey LRT, then this. What next an LRT along kingsway.

What is with Vancouver and loving LRT

The b-line hasn't even begun operation along 41st, why l we all of a sudden need an LRT. I believe they should see how the b-line goes and then they should make the decision for an upgrade like for example; more frenquency or even maybe hi-articulate busses but not and LRT.

Currently there is not enough demand for and LRT on 41st. maybe in about 10 years there will be enough demand for bi-articulate busses but LRT is too much and a waste of money and time. Also the roads in Kerrisdale between West boulevard and Larch street is way too narrow for there to Ben a train track in the middle of the road. 

BLine service now requires a mandatory bus lane. I guess TransLink is getting scared of BRT creep.

[Brando737]

I think Vancouver is expecting the development in the Oakridge area to drastically increase the need for better rapid transit and I'm sure the Oakridge development is just the beginning of the 41st corridor being revamped in some way.  They should at least start with a dedicated bus lane to get an initial improvement.