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Transit Service Discussion (Articulated/Conventional/Shuttle/Skytrain/Seabus)


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1 hour ago, nname said:

B-Line consultation:

https://www.translink.ca/Plans-and-Projects/B-Line-Program.aspx

 

41st Avenue B-Line

3-6min peak, 8min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

Replaces route 43

Reduce and shorten 41 to Crown and operate by Trolley

UBC portion of 41 replaced by 49

 

Fraser Highway B-Line

8min peak, 10min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

Reduce 502 service and 503 to become local

 

Lougheed B-Line

10min peak, 15min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

New service on Lougheed Highway in Maple Ridge

Extend 595 to 203 Street

 

Marine-Main B-Line

8min peak, 10min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

Replaces route 239

Extend 240 to Lynn Valley and increase frequency

Move 255 to Keith and reduce frequency

Service to Cap U either by (a) new high-frequency route or (B) extend 28 all day plus more service on 130

I'm loving the changes for 41st and the North Shore. Trolley-buses on the 41, finally!  The decision about the 502/503 also seems good to me, although I don't travel on that corridor often. 

Also hoping they actually implement more bus lanes and traffic priority measures. 

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2 hours ago, nname said:

B-Line consultation:

https://www.translink.ca/Plans-and-Projects/B-Line-Program.aspx

 

41st Avenue B-Line

3-6min peak, 8min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

Replaces route 43

Reduce and shorten 41 to Crown and operate by Trolley

UBC portion of 41 replaced by 49

 

Fraser Highway B-Line

8min peak, 10min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

Reduce 502 service and 503 to become local

 

Lougheed B-Line

10min peak, 15min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

New service on Lougheed Highway in Maple Ridge

Extend 595 to 203 Street

 

Marine-Main B-Line

8min peak, 10min midday/evening/weekend, 15min night

Replaces route 239

Extend 240 to Lynn Valley and increase frequency

Move 255 to Keith and reduce frequency

Service to Cap U either by (a) new high-frequency route or (B) extend 28 all day plus more service on 130

41st Avenue B-Line 

Pretty solid choices for route changes, although I think that the Agronomy stop is too close to UBC Exchange but I understand why they have it. (UBC Hospital)

 

Fraser Highway B-Line

I thought the 503 was supposed to operate between Langley Centre and Aldergrove.

 

Lougheed Highway B-Line

The 595 could be extended to Haney via Lougheed Highway to provide local service perhaps...

 

Marine-Main B-Line

240 - Good.

255 - Eh... I guess it's fine.

Cap U service - option A seems like a better choice as it would be more reliable than the 28 and the 130.

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the 502/503 change is gonna cause chaos. People not getting on the 503 because they think it doesn't go to Langley, etc. Let's not forget residents who might know routes by their number only, and so they see "502 Surrey Central" and don't realize it goes the exact same route as the "503 Surrey Central", which in Surrey is understandable, considering 6 buses leave Surrey with the headsign "Newton Exchange".

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59 minutes ago, Stormscape said:

the 502/503 change is gonna cause chaos. People not getting on the 503 because they think it doesn't go to Langley, etc. Let's not forget residents who might know routes by their number only, and so they see "502 Surrey Central" and don't realize it goes the exact same route as the "503 Surrey Central", which in Surrey is understandable, considering 6 buses leave Surrey with the headsign "Newton Exchange".

Reminds us of the old 332/335 split. Now I don't recall a similar operation.

 

These were my suggestions: Either 

1) Keep the 503 as a 337-type service, serving as a regional express on top of B-line service. Connect riders going directly to or east of Langley with prioritized non-stop service

2) Set up the 503 to run as a local service between Aldergrove and Langley Centre. Though it might force a transfer for riders going from Aldergrove going westbound, ridership is encouraged onto the B-line and is kept off local alternatives. Additionally, service would increase in reliability as the route would be unaffected by incidents along Fraser Highway.

3) Alternate service on 502 going to either Langley Centre or Aldergrove. This reduces ridership confusion, and it also means that 15 minute frequency for local service is spread onto one route. Simplifies the system for riders, and similar operations are already in place (335 from Surrey Central to either Guildford or Newton Exchange).

 

Perhaps the 502 should move to King George station? A bulk of passengers needing service down Fraser Highway will be using the B-line anyways. It also alleviates congestion at Surrey Central Station. Perhaps needs more looking into should King George become overcrowded. Should it be a backup hub?

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18 minutes ago, Express691 said:

Reminds us of the old 332/335 split. Now I don't recall a similar operation.

 

These were my suggestions: Either 

1) Keep the 503 as a 337-type service, serving as a regional express on top of B-line service. Connect riders going directly to or east of Langley with prioritized non-stop service

2) Set up the 503 to run as a local service between Aldergrove and Langley Centre. Though it might force a transfer for riders going from Aldergrove going westbound, ridership is encouraged onto the B-line and is kept off local alternatives. Additionally, service would increase in reliability as the route would be unaffected by incidents along Fraser Highway.

3) Alternate service on 502 going to either Langley Centre or Aldergrove. This reduces ridership confusion, and it also means that 15 minute frequency for local service is spread onto one route. Simplifies the system for riders, and similar operations are already in place (335 from Surrey Central to either Guildford or Newton Exchange).

 

Perhaps the 502 should move to King George station? A bulk of passengers needing service down Fraser Highway will be using the B-line anyways. It also alleviates congestion at Surrey Central Station.

I suggested to reroute the 503 to run every 30 minutes between Langley and Aldergrove while having the 502 run every 15 minutes between Surrey Central and Langley Centre, I also said that every second 502 trip could become a 503 Aldergrove, which is similar to the way it is now.

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Final thoughts:

For the 41st Avenue B-Line:

  • THE RETURN OF THE TROLLEYBUSES!  (Okay I know, I'm too excited for this.)
  • The 49 should have more stops within Westbrook Village. Currently, the 41 only has one stop in the whole neighbourhood...
  • The B-Line should also route via Westbrook Mall between 16th Avenue and Marine Dr.
    • This enables a stop near the South Campus roundabout, which should be in place at launch.
  • A stop should be placed at Marine Drive and Westbrook Mall at launch or in the future.
  • What location will they eventually pick for the eastbound Joyce and Kingsway stop?
    • The north side doesn't have a lot of room and is on a downslope.
    • The south side is farther away from the other bus stops at that intersection.
  • I do wonder if the passenger loads on the 49 will become lighter post-implementation.

For the Fraser Highway B-Line:

  • If the 503 will be forced to pick up and drop off passengers at all local stops, would it not make more sense to just merge it back into the 502?
  • @Express691's idea to split the services by geography makes more sense. In other words, the 502 runs between Surrey and Langley, and the 503 runs between Langley and Aldergrove.

For the North Shore B-Line:

  • A CapilanoU shuttle (option A) seems like the best solution... but I begin to wonder what the benefits are for keeping the peak-hour 28 and 130 runs.
  • I noticed that there will be a long gap in service between Queensbury Ave and Brooksbank Ave. Oddly, there are no bus stops in the area currently, which is perplexing.
    • With the current stop spacing, I think TransLink has missed an opportunity to add a bus stop in the Heywood St area in the future.
    • Alternatively, we could space the stops at launch a little wider: St Patricks Ave & Queensbury Ave.

For the Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge B-Line:

  • The implementation of this B-Line is highly contingent on the BC Ministry of Transportation granting permission for bus stop locations.
  • I'd adjust the stop spacing so that they connect better with local routes. Instead of Ottawa St, have stops at Coast Meridian Rd & Sherling Ave.
  • The stops at Meadowtown and 222nd St should be implemented at launch.
  • The 595 should really terminate at a more central location like Haney Place, and not in the middle of nowhere.
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I suggested to extend the B-Line to Capilano U without thinking that there's really nowhere to put it since there's no extra space for layover. I also suggested that more of the 130 Pender/Kootenay Loop trips should extend to Phibbs Exchange to connect to the B-Line.

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I wanna say that splitting the corridor into 2 sections: Aldergrove to Langley, Langley to Surrey Central. Doing this allows for potential service increases to especially the 503, should ridership increase. Also allows for 503 to extend into Willowbrook if necessary. It allows better accessibility into Willowbrook. Ties into the point in the case of demand increasing east of Langley.

The solution in the survey suggests something similar to the old 332/335. Difficult to increase service because headways would be scrambled.
 

16 minutes ago, Millennium2002 said:

Developing thoughts:

If the 503 will be forced to pick up and drop off passengers at all local stops, would it not make more sense to just merge it back into the 502?

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Why does the Lougheed B-Line have an alternative routing along Dewdney Trunk Road? Wouldn't it take longer to get to/from Haney Place then just going straight down Lougheed? I also hope they don't 98 B-Line-it and have the route go down one-way through Lougheed and then one-way through Dewdney, because that would just be dumb. 

Also, does the Marine-Main B-Line really need the future stop at St. Andrews? It's 2 blocks away from the 3rd Street stop.

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23 minutes ago, 8010 said:

Why does the Lougheed B-Line have an alternative routing along Dewdney Trunk Road? Wouldn't it take longer to get to/from Haney Place then just going straight down Lougheed? I also hope they don't 98 B-Line-it and have the route go down one-way through Lougheed and then one-way through Dewdney, because that would just be dumb. 

Also, does the Marine-Main B-Line really need the future stop at St. Andrews? It's 2 blocks away from the 3rd Street stop.

Lougheed is a provincial highway, so it need province's approval and construction if there's not already an existing stop.

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1 hour ago, Express691 said:

Reminds us of the old 332/335 split. Now I don't recall a similar operation.

 

These were my suggestions: Either 

1) Keep the 503 as a 337-type service, serving as a regional express on top of B-line service. Connect riders going directly to or east of Langley with prioritized non-stop service

2) Set up the 503 to run as a local service between Aldergrove and Langley Centre. Though it might force a transfer for riders going from Aldergrove going westbound, ridership is encouraged onto the B-line and is kept off local alternatives. Additionally, service would increase in reliability as the route would be unaffected by incidents along Fraser Highway.

3) Alternate service on 502 going to either Langley Centre or Aldergrove. This reduces ridership confusion, and it also means that 15 minute frequency for local service is spread onto one route. Simplifies the system for riders, and similar operations are already in place (335 from Surrey Central to either Guildford or Newton Exchange).

 

Perhaps the 502 should move to King George station? A bulk of passengers needing service down Fraser Highway will be using the B-line anyways. It also alleviates congestion at Surrey Central Station. Perhaps needs more looking into should King George become overcrowded. Should it be a backup hub?

I prefer option #2, you don't need two local routes after the introduction of B-Line. People will just wait for the 502 even if the 503 comes first because they think the 503 is an express route. With the shorter route, they can run the 503 more often during the peak periods (every 15 or 20 minutes).

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19 minutes ago, nname said:

Lougheed is a provincial highway, so it need province's approval and construction if there's not already an existing stop.

Oh so the Dedney route is a placeholder in case the routing down Lougheed is denied?

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3 hours ago, Millennium2002 said:

Developing thoughts:

For the 41st Avenue B-Line:

  • THE RETURN OF THE TROLLEYBUSES!  (Okay I know, I'm too excited for this.)
  • The 49 should have more stops within Westbrook Village. Currently, the 41st only has one stop in the whole neighbourhood...
  • The B-Line should also route via Westbrook Mall between 16th Avenue and Marine Dr.
    • This enables a stop near the South Campus roundabout, which should be in place at launch.
  • I do wonder if the passenger loads on the 49 will become lighter post-implementation.

Right now it's slower to take Wesbrook than 16th between the Roundabout and Marine Drive, and Wesbook in South Campus isn't really good for handling high volumes of traffic (esp. since UBC didn't make it a transit mall). Wouldn't be a good idea to run both the routes through there.

3 hours ago, 8010 said:

I suggested to reroute the 503 to run every 30 minutes between Langley and Aldergrove while having the 502 run every 15 minutes between Surrey Central and Langley Centre, I also said that every second 502 trip could become a 503 Aldergrove, which is similar to the way it is now.

Might as well just return to having 502 Aldergrove and 502 Langley Centre, so that people getting on west of Langley Centre know if the bus is going to continue into Aldergrove.

2 hours ago, Express691 said:

I wanna say that splitting the corridor into 2 sections: Aldergrove to Langley, Langley to Surrey Central. Doing this allows for potential service increases to especially the 503, should ridership increase. Also allows for 503 to extend into Willowbrook if necessary. It allows better accessibility into Willowbrook. Ties into the point in the case of demand increasing east of Langley.

 

The solution in the survey suggests something similar to the old 332/335. Difficult to increase service because headways would be scrambled.

 

This might be dreaming but if the section west of Langley Centre can be merged with the Aldergrove Connector so that select trips can go from Langley all the way to Abbotsford that'd be great 

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Beyond all of the criticisms already levied... I think the new 503 is just too long. It doesn't help that it's essentially returning to being the 502 Aldergrove except just retaining the 503 number (since the 502's "15 min" freq is really going to be the 502 and 503 each running every 30 mins. Booo, hisss). The repercussions of something like an accident on the route could be pretty massive. A block in the highway east of Langley (or even a bus break-down) and suddenly there's a 30 minute gap between local buses west of Langley. Cut off the highway west of Langley, and you introduce further delays as the 503 will now have to pick up other stranded local passengers while en route to Langley. I can just see the PR repercussions of such incidents: local residents at a stop for 20-30 minutes, waiting for a westbound 503 bus that is stuck somewhere in Murrayville while B-Line buses that aren't stopping pass by every 8 minutes. I really can't think of a better way to douse peoples' enthusiasm for Fraser B-Line service...

 

 

 

Keeping the 503 separate from the 502 is definitely a must - whether it is by outright truncating 503 at Langley Centre (so 503 riders funnel onto the big B-Line buses), or continuing to run it as an express or non-stop service. A reasonable compromise would be to run the continuing express service to King George Station during peak hours, similar to how the 501 shadows 96 service on 104th. However, given the connection to BC Transit in Aldergrove (and the potential that this connection could be improved by BC Transit, i.e. connected to the growing Abbotsford Airport), I would actually like to see continuous 503 express service maintained all-day - or at least for however long the 21 is operating, otherwise terminate @ Langley Centre.

 

 

 

One thing TL has been curiously quiet about is the peak-hour supplemental routes in Fleetwood (345 and 395). With the introduction of the B-Line and its supporting infrastructure, I feel like changing these routes into faster express services should be done, since both routes are geared towards City Centre & SkyTrain commuters rather than local commuters. These routes would then supplement the B-Line service. This could be done later as a measure to alleviate overcrowding in Fleetwood, in case the B-Line is extremely popular.

 

 

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4 hours ago, 8800GTX said:

Keeping the 503 separate from the 502 is definitely a non-starter

Are you sure you're using the term "non-starter" right?

Also, especially as the population south of Fraser grows, might it make sense to extend the #503 to YXX and make the interchange with Central Fraser Valley Transit there?

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4 hours ago, 8800GTX said:

One thing TL has been curiously quiet about is the peak-hour supplemental routes in Fleetwood (345 and 395).

#345: reduce service to rush-hour only, B-Line stops only on Fraser Highway; make the #375 an FTN route

#395: agreed re: B-Line stops only on Fraser Highway; make the #364 an FTN route (and extend the #96 to South Surrey Exchange at least!)

 

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1 hour ago, Stormscape said:

Anybody else think Fraser Highway might have a few too many stops? The B-line stops at 148, 152, 156, 160, 164, and 168. Isn't that a might bit excessive for an express service?

Ideally, you want rapid-transit stops every 800-1000 m through urban areas for maximum "city-building" potential. The distance from 148 St. to 152 St. along Fraser Hwy. is about 900 m, so that's just about right. That's about the same distance as you have between the #99 stops through Central Broadway.

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4 hours ago, Stormscape said:

Anybody else think Fraser Highway might have a few too many stops? The B-line stops at 148, 152, 156, 160, 164, and 168. Isn't that a might bit excessive for an express service?

All of those streets you've just listed are the roads that local routes travel along, B-Lines typically try to connect to as many local routes as possible along the corridor it's serving to increase frequent/rapid transit connections while maintaining the express service it is meant to be. Also what @GORDOOM said is also correct.

I don't know if anyone cares but here's what I suggested for the Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows ATP bus changes:

701 - discontinue service between Haney Place and 250th Street.

791 - extend route to 250th Street to replace 701's service coverage and expand span of service to operate later at night and operate every 30 minutes on weekends & holidays (slightly reduced frequency to Maple Ridge East during peak with service operating every 20 minutes instead of every 15, off-peak frequency would remain the same).

Maple Ridge/Mission City - hourly bus service to/from Mission City Station when West Coast Express is not operating, whether it's select 701 trips or a new route entirely.

Community Shuttles - improve route structures and operate routes every 30-60 minutes rather than every 60-120 minutes, which would attract more ridership.

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