WMATA Washington

[blue.bird.fan]

Rode a DE40LFA, 6596, on the 38B today. Also was almost hit by NIS 6447 while crossing the street.

Also, why are the 5000-series trains retiring so early?

[WMATAC40LF]

On 8/31/2018 at 6:56 PM, blue.bird.fan said:

Rode a DE40LFA, 6596, on the 38B today. Also was almost hit by NIS 6447 while crossing the street.

Also, why are the 5000-series trains retiring so early?

If you're referring to the fact that the 5ks are being retired after less than 20 years of service, there are several reasons. They have been relatively unreliable since they entered service. In fact, their mean distance between failures (MDBF) was no better than the old 1000s. The production of the 5ks was also rushed during the early 2000s, so Metro would have enough cars for the opening of the Green Line extension. This unfortunately resulted in shoddy workmanship and production defects. WMATA originally had plans to overhaul these cars, but instead choose to exercise 220 more options for 7000s back in 2015 after the FTA provided the funds. I mean if you have the money, why bother fixing up old cars when you can get new ones?

[Chris.A]

Does anyone know exactly how many 2000 Orion Vs remain on WMATA property? I know #2105, #2114-2115, #2119, #2122, and #2130 are all @ FMR depot. I also know #2194 is active out in Maryland somewhere. Also, how many 2500 series Orion VII CNGs remain in service and which ones? #2598 is also out of FMR.

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 6:56 PM, blue.bird.fan said:

Rode a DE40LFA, 6596, on the 38B today. Also was almost hit by NIS 6447 while crossing the street.

Also, why are the 5000-series trains retiring so early?

Yeah, I find the 5000s being retired totally ridiculous. The 4000s were bad enough!

[Chris.A]

Also a few of the new 2018 XDE60s are now at CET #5481 a 3 others are parked there.

[Chris.A]

Does anyone know if Cinder Bed Depot is going to be another Weekday only garage or will they have weekend service too?

[WMATAC40LF]

On 10/9/2018 at 9:40 AM, Chris.A said:

Does anyone know exactly how many 2000 Orion Vs remain on WMATA property? I know #2105, #2114-2115, #2119, #2122, and #2130 are all @ FMR depot. I also know #2194 is active out in Maryland somewhere. Also, how many 2500 series Orion VII CNGs remain in service and which ones? #2598 is also out of FMR.

Yeah, I find the 5000s being retired totally ridiculous. The 4000s were bad enough!

I don't know the exact number of Vs left, but they've basically been replaced by the 2018 XN40s. I expect some will be kept at CET as a reserve fleet. As far as the Orion VII CNGs go, they've now retired over 40 of them (all from the 2500 range). I don't know too many of the numbers because they typically scratch those off before sending them to CET for removal. Since many of these buses were based at the Bladensburg division, WMATA has transferred additional 2900s over to Bladensburg. 

The retirement of the 5Ks and 4Ks may seem a little wasteful, but if you look into the reasons for these retirements, it makes a little more sense. 

Actually its interesting you mentioned that, because today was the last day of 5000 Series service on Metro. They are already being removed from the property, and sent to the scrapper (with the exception of 5000-5001, which will be preserved).

Its also worth noting that WMATA has begun the procurement of the 8000 Series. At least 256 will be needed to replace the 2000s and 3000s, but more could be (and I suspect will be) acquired to replace the 6000s and enable 100% 8 car trains.  

https://www.wmata.com/about/news/8000-series-railcar-procurement.cfm

On 10/9/2018 at 7:47 PM, Chris.A said:

Does anyone know if Cinder Bed Depot is going to be another Weekday only garage or will they have weekend service too?

I'm not certain about this, but if they are trying to tun the REX route out of Cinder Bed (which their procurement documents suggest is the case), then it probably is a 7 days a week affair. You might want to look at this page:

https://www.wmata.com/business/procurement/solicitations/Cinder-Bed-O-and-M.cfm

[Chris.A]

14 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

I don't know the exact number of Vs left, but they've basically been replaced by the 2018 XN40s. I expect some will be kept at CET as a reserve fleet. As far as the Orion VII CNGs go, they've now retired over 40 of them (all from the 2500 range). I don't know too many of the numbers because they typically scratch those off before sending them to CET for removal. Since many of these buses were based at the Bladensburg division, WMATA has transferred additional 2900s over to Bladensburg. 

The retirement of the 5Ks and 4Ks may seem a little wasteful, but if you look into the reasons for these retirements, it makes a little more sense. 

Actually its interesting you mentioned that, because today was the last day of 5000 Series service on Metro. They are already being removed from the property, and sent to the scrapper (with the exception of 5000-5001, which will be preserved).

Its also worth noting that WMATA has begun the procurement of the 8000 Series. At least 256 will be needed to replace the 2000s and 3000s, but more could be (and I suspect will be) acquired to replace the 6000s and enable 100% 8 car trains.  

https://www.wmata.com/about/news/8000-series-railcar-procurement.cfm

I'm not certain about this, but if they are trying to tun the REX route out of Cinder Bed (which their procurement documents suggest is the case), then it probably is a 7 days a week affair. You might want to look at this page:

https://www.wmata.com/business/procurement/solicitations/Cinder-Bed-O-and-M.cfm

That sucks, for the newest 5000 series units were only from 2004. That'd be like the MTA scrapping some R142/As. Could have used some for Work trains. If they retire the 6000s next, then they really would be foolish. The 6000s IIRC are Metro's second most reliable cars.

I know that #2506, #2523, #2532, #2553, # 2580-2597 and #2599 are all retired. Do you know if any C40LFs are left on property? I know WMATA had like 4 or 5 2000 Orion VIs @ CET a few months ago. They need to have a museum fleet of buses too.

[Border City Transit]

14 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

I'm not certain about this, but if they are trying to tun the REX route out of Cinder Bed (which their procurement documents suggest is the case), then it probably is a 7 days a week affair. You might want to look at this page:

Yep.

The document linked in @WMATAC40LF 's post shows the day-by-day breakdowns for the contractor. It appears that Cinder Bed will operate every day.

Cinder Bed will be a Metrobus garage not operated by WMATA. It's contracted out to a private vendor... but it will "look" like Metrobus. Hm. Can't find the right emoji for that...

This isn't the first time that WMATA has lost service to a private operator... but in the past, those services have visibly changed identity to the riding public. Like, many Fairfax Connector routes used to be WMATA. When WMATA ceased to operate them, they became part of a completely different system with a completely different brand.

We'll see... I recognize the cost control issues at WMATA, but I happen to think they run a pretty solid bus operation. I can deal with contracted services on the fringes, but it could get ugly if low-bidders get their claws on major/core routes. The issues at Circulator make that case. The public entity responsible for the route... instead of arguing with unions, they're arguing with lawyers and procurement officers. Any way you slice it, running transit service isn't easy or cheap. And you tend to get what you pay for!

 

 

[Orion6025]

3 hours ago, Chris.A said:

Do you know if any C40LFs are left on property?

Very unlikely. Tanks expired on the newest C40LF last year (Bear in mind those buses were built 2001-2002) so it wouldn't have made much fiscal sense to retank or recertify a bus that may or may not run again. Perhaps there may be some sitting around awaiting scrap.

 

3 hours ago, Chris.A said:

They need to have a museum fleet of buses too.

They do. There's a 1997 Orion V, a 1979 GMC RTS-03, an Old Look, and 2 New Looks

[Chris.A]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 7:09 PM, Orion6025 said:

Very unlikely. Tanks expired on the newest C40LF last year (Bear in mind those buses were built 2001-2002) so it wouldn't have made much fiscal sense to retank or recertify a bus that may or may not run again. Perhaps there may be some sitting around awaiting scrap.

 

They do. There's a 1997 Orion V, a 1979 GMC RTS-03, an Old Look, and 2 New Looks

The Orion V might not even be permanent. Notice they didn't even save a Flexible Metro B D or E! 

[WMATAC40LF]

On 10/13/2018 at 3:29 PM, Chris.A said:

That sucks, for the newest 5000 series units were only from 2004. That'd be like the MTA scrapping some R142/As. Could have used some for Work trains. If they retire the 6000s next, then they really would be foolish. The 6000s IIRC are Metro's second most reliable cars.

I know that #2506, #2523, #2532, #2553, # 2580-2597 and #2599 are all retired. Do you know if any C40LFs are left on property? I know WMATA had like 4 or 5 2000 Orion VIs @ CET a few months ago. They need to have a museum fleet of buses too.

All of the C40LFs were retired by late 2016. The last few were removed from the property many months ago. Some (if not all) of the stored VIs are apparently gone too.

WMATA's only work cars right now are 2 6000s and 4 1000s. Metro has indicated that additional maintenance cars will be converted from 2000s (with 2016-2017 being the first two). It wouldn't make sense to keep a bunch of 5K parts on hand for just a few maintenance cars. 

And as far as a potential 6K retirement goes, its way too early to tell what they'll do. I will say that it would make sense from a fleet perspective to have only two types of cars. If they did want to retire the 6Ks early, they would need permission from the FTA to do so (since the cars were purchased in part using federal funds). 

8 hours ago, Chris.A said:

The Orion V might not even be permanent. Notice they didn't even same a Flexible Metro B D or E! 

It is somewhat permanent. 4271 is painted in the local scheme and used as the "roadeo" bus. It replaced the previous roadeo bus (a Flxible). I'm not sure what happened to the old Flxible, but it'd be a shame if it was scrapped. 

On 10/13/2018 at 3:47 PM, Border City Transit said:

Yep.

The document linked in @WMATAC40LF 's post shows the day-by-day breakdowns for the contractor. It appears that Cinder Bed will operate every day.

Cinder Bed will be a Metrobus garage not operated by WMATA. It's contracted out to a private vendor... but it will "look" like Metrobus. Hm. Can't find the right emoji for that...

This isn't the first time that WMATA has lost service to a private operator... but in the past, those services have visibly changed identity to the riding public. Like, many Fairfax Connector routes used to be WMATA. When WMATA ceased to operate them, they became part of a completely different system with a completely different brand.

We'll see... I recognize the cost control issues at WMATA, but I happen to think they run a pretty solid bus operation. I can deal with contracted services on the fringes, but it could get ugly if low-bidders get their claws on major/core routes. The issues at Circulator make that case. The public entity responsible for the route... instead of arguing with unions, they're arguing with lawyers and procurement officers. Any way you slice it, running transit service isn't easy or cheap. And you tend to get what you pay for!

 

 

I'm well aware of the controversy. The local ATU has been putting up quite the fuss about this over the last year. We shall see how it works out, but given the less-than-stellar record of private maintenance at DC Circulator, lets just say I'm skeptical...

[Chris.A]

15 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

 All of the C40LFs were retired by late 2016. The last few were removed from the property many months ago. Some (if not all) of the stored VIs are apparently gone too.

WMATA's only work cars right now are 2 6000s and 4 1000s. Metro has indicated that additional maintenance cars will be converted from 2000s (with 2016-2017 being the first two). It wouldn't make sense to keep a bunch of 5K parts on hand for just a few maintenance cars. 

And as far as a potential 6K retirement goes, its way too early to tell what they'll do. I will say that it would make sense from a fleet perspective to have only two types of cars. If they did want to retire the 6Ks early, they would need permission from the FTA to do so (since the cars were purchased in part using federal funds). 

It is somewhat permanent. 4271 is painted in the local scheme and used as the "roadeo" bus. It replaced the previous roadeo bus (a Flxible). I'm not sure what happened to the old Flxible, but it'd be a shame if it was scrapped. 

I'm well aware of the controversy. The local ATU has been putting up quite the fuss about this over the last year. We shall see how it works out, but given the less-than-stellar record of private maintenance at DC Circulator, lets just say I'm skeptical...

It also needs to be said that Transdev also operates NICE bus in NYC and Long Island  (Formerly MTA Long Island bus up until 2012). They have quite the history of bad maintenance and consist MDBF issues for their CNG Fleet up there. I honestly hope WMATA did their homework with these guys otherwise I don't see this contract lasting too long...

[vvozz]

http://www.atulocal689.org/689-blog/arbitration-panel-rules-paul-wiedefelds-attempt-to-privatize-without-bargaining-unacceptable

 

So does this mean contracting out the new depot has been put on hold ? 

[Chris.A]

1 hour ago, vvozz said:

http://www.atulocal689.org/689-blog/arbitration-panel-rules-paul-wiedefelds-attempt-to-privatize-without-bargaining-unacceptable

 

So does this mean contract the new depot has been put on hold ? 

Who knows, all I want to know is how will this affect fleet transfers between depots going forward? I know Cinder Bed is slated to get 69 2009 New Flyer DE42LFAs (most likely 6300 series hybrids) and 6 2012 Orion VII 3G BRT hybrids (#3082-3087 for they are getting TAGs as well).  

BTW, does anyone remember the website "DCtranist Zone"? What ever happened to it? It just disappeared one day in 2015 and never came back.

[Orion6025]

Is there a WMATA roster divided up by division? I've been looking for one for forever.

[Chris.A]

11 hours ago, Orion6025 said:

Is there a WMATA roster divided up by division? I've been looking for one for forever.

^ This. I totally agree with you, but sadly, there is no WMATA equivalent to NYCT fourms, let alone a depot by depot roster, which is why it is so hard to track down the few remaining 2000 Orion Vs and 2005 Orion VII OG CNGs. Most of the time , I have to go out there and record whatever I see!

[WMATAC40LF]

14 hours ago, Orion6025 said:

Is there a WMATA roster divided up by division? I've been looking for one for forever.

Unfortunately not. I'd say the best one currently available is the Wikipedia page on Metrobus. Another good place to hear about roster updates are the Facebook groups about transit in the DMV. It's hard to keep track of all the changes that have been happening over the last 2 years because of the rehabs and retirements.

[Chris.A]

6 hours ago, WMATAC40LF said:

Unfortunately not. I'd say the best one currently available is the Wikipedia page on Metrobus. Another good place to hear about roster updates are the Facebook groups about transit in the DMV. It's hard to keep track of all the changes that have been happening over the last 2 years because of the rehabs and retirements.

But what happened to D.C. transit zone though? Not everyone wants to do the whole social media thing...

[Orion6025]

On 10/16/2018 at 2:34 PM, WMATAC40LF said:

hear about roster updates are the Facebook groups about transit in the DMV.

Occasionally stuff is anecdotally put up on facebook, but in order for it to be meaningful you need to have a baseline understanding of where everything is, then those occasional sightings of bus moves makes sense.

And that baseline is nowhere to be found it seems like

[Chris.A]

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 6:11 PM, Orion6025 said:

Occasionally stuff is anecdotally put up on facebook, but in order for it to be meaningful you need to have a baseline understanding of where everything is, then those occasional sightings of bus moves makes sense.

And that baseline is nowhere to be found it seems like

Hence, a new WMATA fourms need to be made.

[Transit geek]

18 hours ago, Chris.A said:

Hence, a new WMATA fourms need to be made.

If this is necessary, it might be better to split the current forum into one for bus and one for rail since they are largely independent operations.

[Chris.A]

4 hours ago, Transit geek said:

If this is necessary, it might be better to split the current forum into one for bus and one for rail since they are largely independent operations.

Agreed. Similar to NYCT forums. A Metrobus section, Metrorail section, a regional bus systems section (i.e. DASH, PRTC, Ride-on, etc) and a regional rail section (VRE, ,MARC, DC Streetcar, and MTA Maryland Metro) 

[WMATAC40LF]

1 hour ago, Chris.A said:

a regional rail section (VRE, ,MARC, DC Streetcar, and MTA Maryland Metro) 

If you're interested in Metrorail, MARC, and VRE, I suggest you check out the "DC - Maryland - Virginia Area Passenger Rail: MTA(MARC), VRE, WMATA(Metro)" forum on railroad.net. 

[Chris.A]

On the PRTC side of things, there are about 25 brand new 2018-2019 MCI D4500CTs parked at their storage bus lot (not the main depot). All these buses were delivered white for some reason, possibly to be branded for some special future service. Guess these will be the 400 series buses (#399 and up).

[Chris.A]

Also worth noting, DASH's new 2018 Gillig Advantage Clean diesels are now in service. Spotted #504 on the AT6 and #510 working the AT2. No other Orion Vs  have been retired yet.