General BC Transit Discussion

[ephrex]

4 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

Okay, so where has BC Transit been getting their realtime data from on bus locations for the NextRide website itself? Isn't vehicle tracking already a NextRide feature? Also, does the Cowichan Valley system not have a dedicated NextRide website?

The existing NextRide sites are for the systems where NextRide 1.0 had been installed. A different AVL solution from another vendor was chosen for the NextRide 2.0 project, and as far as I know there is no plan currently to include a dedicated website for those.

Cowichan did not have a public realtime vehicle tracking feature prior to this, nor does any of the other systems not part of the NextRide 1.0 batch. Any info that showed up in Transit app for those systems before were sourced from static schedule information and was not realtime.

[InfiNorth]

2 hours ago, ephrex said:

The existing NextRide sites are for the systems where NextRide 1.0 had been installed. A different AVL solution from another vendor was chosen for the NextRide 2.0 project, and as far as I know there is no plan currently to include a dedicated website for those.

I mean, the current NextRide web platform looks like a first year GIS project that would have gotten a C+. Probably good that they aren't going to keep using it in new systems. 

[InfiNorth]

I had a long (and very informative) conversation with one of the organizers on the NextRide 2.0 project yesterday. Key takeaways:

• Fare capping will be a thing (Compass are you paying attention?) which will be particularly beneficial as day passes in most BC Transit systems using a DayPass are only two one-way tickets, meaning you cap out very quickly with a single transfer.
• If a route is operated by one of the included transit systems it will be part of NextRide 2.0 - even if it doesn't appear in the public GTFS RT. All vehicles will be equipped and actively tracked by service providers. This includes health connections and on-demand services.
• Any route that incorporates even a small area of on-demand service will not be included in NextRide 2.0 in its original form.
• This is partly for privacy - being able to see where on-demand door-to-door buses are stopping allows people to violate the privacy of others in knowing where they live.
• BCBusNorth isn't part of BC Transit and thus will not ever be part of NextRide 2.0.
• One goal of the 2.0 system is that all operators will have access to the same data, allowing for transit systems to monitor their interconnections with other transit systems and thus (hopefully) tweak schedules if connections are being frequently missed.

Some unrelated notes:

• There are, so far as the planner was aware of, no plans whatsoever to improve the 44/66/99 between the Cowichan and Victoria system to replicate the exceptional service levels provided on the 70 Nanaimo Express.

[ephrex]

NextRide 2.0 is publicly live via Transit App in Campbell River as of today.

Port Alberni system has been installed and should show up publicly soon.

Installation for the Fraser Valley systems will commence soon with a go-live date within the next 4-6 weeks.

[InfiNorth]

8 hours ago, ephrex said:

NextRide 2.0 is publicly live via Transit App in Campbell River as of today.

Port Alberni system has been installed and should show up publicly soon.

Installation for the Fraser Valley systems will commence soon with a go-live date within the next 4-6 weeks.

That's very exciting - hopefully it makes the services more accessible. I'm mostly waiting for the systems that aren't currently in TransitApp or Google in any form at all.

[InfiNorth]

Ok next question is when someone is going to program a map of every single public transit vehicle in British Columbia at the same time... 

[ThatBusGuy]

On 3/10/2022 at 5:35 PM, InfiNorth said:

Ok next question is when someone is going to program a map of every single public transit vehicle in British Columbia at the same time... 

Should be available on BCTracker pretty soon! We've been working on adding the new realtime systems since January, but due to some complicated GTFS changes and signs that they're still actively testing things, we haven't released those changes to the public yet. If all goes well we're considering releasing sometime after the CFV/Chilliwack changes occur next week.

For now here's a sneak peek at the map view as it currently appears 

(Technically it isn't all of BC... since we don't support Vancouver right now. But it's every bus that has NextRide activated!)

[ThatBusGuy]

Took a bit longer than planned to get things running smoothly, but as of today BCTracker now provides realtime bus tracking information for a bunch more transit systems around BC! This includes Cowichan Valley, Port Alberni, Campbell River, Powell River, and Sunshine Coast as brand-new systems, along with Fraser Valley which is replacing the old Central Fraser Valley and Chilliwack systems. Also new are North Okanagan and South Okanagan, which are the next two systems to be receiving NextRide. They are still being tested so we aren't releasing realtime data for them yet, but the schedule data is available now. Those systems and more will be added over the next few months as the NextRide rollout continues.

A quick note about Fraser Valley - there are still some ongoing login issues, which means some trips/blocks may appear to not have a bus on them even if there actually is one. Unfortunately there's not much we can do about it, so just keep in mind that a missing bus does not necessarily mean the trip is cancelled. You may also occasionally see some completely wrong logins from time to time, but that's become much less of an issue than it was a couple months ago.

You can check out all the new systems here: https://bctracker.ca/

[ephrex]

There should not be any login issues in the Valley systems at this point. Dispatch hasn't been cancelling trips in the system so they don't show up as cancelled, but there are huge amounts of lost service on a daily basis currently.

[ThatBusGuy]

Hmm, interesting. Do you know if that's the case for routes 71 and 72 in Chilliwack? They seem to be the ones that don't have logins most frequently, but it appears to be random - some days a trip will have a bus logged in and other days it won't, rather than a specific set of trips getting cut. Plus, there's still a few Vicinities that haven't logged in at all or have only done so a couple times. Both those factors lead me to assume it was the buses themselves not showing up properly because of some technical issues. Of course it could just be coincidence if those particular buses are simply not in service for unrelated maintenance issues, and if the trips are getting cancelled because of last-minute reasons rather than on a regular basis. All I have to go on is the data that's provided through the API, so I could very well be wrong!

[ephrex]

Most of the major router issues that plagued some buses at this point should have been fixed. Minor issues may still persist, but the technical issues, and/or drivers not logging in should only be a small portion of the missing ones now. Majority is missed service.

[2102]

Noticed some new XN40s at Detroit Diesel in Langley. I saw 1249, 1251, and there were three or four others too

[Busmanic92]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:02 PM, 2102 said:

Noticed some new XN40s at Detroit Diesel in Langley. I saw 1249, 1251, and there were three or four others too

Are they white tail like predecessors 1203-1212 and 1213-1232?

[2102]

11 hours ago, Busmanic92 said:

Are they white tail like predecessors 11203-1212 and 1213-1232?

Yes

[ephrex]

I'll believe it when I see it (vote on Monday) but it's about time there's some good BCT news, with all the bad press lately.

[ephrex]

Unifor membership has rejected the tentative offer and strike action will continue.

[XN40G]

What busses somehow still have the Face Covering/Mask Mandatory accouncement not removed from the bus next ride system? 

Because I noticed that 1063 and 1067 in Kamloops still have ("Masks are Mandatory on BC Transit Vehicles") when others do not

[XN40G]

BC Tracker has now the other Kootenay systems and the northern bc systems that get nextride in the jan accouncement

Quick question, is their a reason why didn't Williams Lake and Quesnel / 100 mile get the next ride? Williams Lake and Quesnel have Grande West Busses and 100 mile have 3 busses for a small community with the old bc transit bus stop signs

[Articulated]

32 minutes ago, XN40G said:

BC Tracker has now the other Kootenay systems and the northern bc systems that get nextride in the jan accouncement

Quick question, is their a reason why didn't Williams Lake and Quesnel / 100 mile get the next ride? Williams Lake and Quesnel have Grande West Busses and 100 mile have 3 busses for a small community with the old bc transit bus stop signs

They would need to send technicians to those communities to install the Next Ride technology on the buses first, which is why they haven't been completed yet.

I'm a little surprised that Kitimat and Prince Rupert are on the completed list, but Terrace isn't. Same with the other systems along that stretch of Highway 16, which are administered under one contract.

[XN40G]

1 hour ago, Articulated said:

They would need to send technicians to those communities to install the Next Ride technology on the buses first, which is why they haven't been completed yet.

I'm a little surprised that Kitimat and Prince Rupert are on the completed list, but Terrace isn't. Same with the other systems along that stretch of Highway 16, which are administered under one contract.

They put the Terrace Routes under the kitimat system as Routes 41-46

also 4406 can do the terrace 4# routes

[ThatBusGuy]

Came here to say that new systems are available, but looks like I've already been beat to it! I can provide some technical answers to the above questions though...

I don't know why some systems were chosen over others to receive realtime initially, but there are two reasons why I wouldn't be surprised if more are added in the future. First a bit of background - unlike NextRide 1.0, in which systems were IDed by a name (victoria, comox, etc), NextRide 2.0 systems are IDed by a number. This is why we're able to show all these new systems before they've technically been fully released; we can simply plug in different numbers to see if anything shows up. The first reason I think more systems are coming is because some numbers were skipped, so it's absolutely possible more will be added in the future to fill in those gaps. The second reason is because a bonus system actually already exists that wasn't originally announced: Mount Waddington. If you look at realtime info for All Systems on BCTracker, you may occasionally see some of their shuttles online. Unlike other new systems there is no trip/block data available, only bus positions, which is why it only exists as a ghostly hidden system on the website. But given that it exists when it wasn't supposed to, I have high hopes that other systems will be added as well.

Terrace and Kitimat are a bit weird, because there's actually separate system IDs for both of them - but they both have the exact same trip/block data, and buses only show up for the Kitimat ID. It certainly makes sense to have them combined, so I'm not entirely sure what that's all about. I'll definitely keep an eye on it to see if anything ends up changing about that.

One other thing I'll mention - you may notice that Creston Valley is separate from the other East Kootenay systems, even though the routes there were renumbered so they could all be combined. The reason for that is every software developer's worst nightmare: timezones. Since Creston does not observe daylight savings, half the year its schedules are an hour behind the rest of East Kootenay, making it difficult to integrate them nicely. So it seems BC Transit decided to say screw it and keep it as a separate system.

[InfiNorth]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:07 PM, ThatBusGuy said:

One other thing I'll mention - you may notice that Creston Valley is separate from the other East Kootenay systems, even though the routes there were renumbered so they could all be combined. The reason for that is every software developer's worst nightmare: timezones. Since Creston does not observe daylight savings, half the year its schedules are an hour behind the rest of East Kootenay, making it difficult to integrate them nicely. So it seems BC Transit decided to say screw it and keep it as a separate system.

I invite people to find another situation where within a single transit "system" (ie BC Transit being a "system") you have shifting time zones... wow. 

[XN40G]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:07 PM, ThatBusGuy said:

Came here to say that new systems are available, but looks like I've already been beat to it! I can provide some technical answers to the above questions though...

I don't know why some systems were chosen over others to receive realtime initially, but there are two reasons why I wouldn't be surprised if more are added in the future. First a bit of background - unlike NextRide 1.0, in which systems were IDed by a name (victoria, comox, etc), NextRide 2.0 systems are IDed by a number. This is why we're able to show all these new systems before they've technically been fully released; we can simply plug in different numbers to see if anything shows up. The first reason I think more systems are coming is because some numbers were skipped, so it's absolutely possible more will be added in the future to fill in those gaps. The second reason is because a bonus system actually already exists that wasn't originally announced: Mount Waddington. If you look at realtime info for All Systems on BCTracker, you may occasionally see some of their shuttles online. Unlike other new systems there is no trip/block data available, only bus positions, which is why it only exists as a ghostly hidden system on the website. But given that it exists when it wasn't supposed to, I have high hopes that other systems will be added as well.

Terrace and Kitimat are a bit weird, because there's actually separate system IDs for both of them - but they both have the exact same trip/block data, and buses only show up for the Kitimat ID. It certainly makes sense to have them combined, so I'm not entirely sure what that's all about. I'll definitely keep an eye on it to see if anything ends up changing about that.

One other thing I'll mention - you may notice that Creston Valley is separate from the other East Kootenay systems, even though the routes there were renumbered so they could all be combined. The reason for that is every software developer's worst nightmare: timezones. Since Creston does not observe daylight savings, half the year its schedules are an hour behind the rest of East Kootenay, making it difficult to integrate them nicely. So it seems BC Transit decided to say screw it and keep it as a separate system.

On the wiki, combine the Terrace and the Kitimat systems onto 1 page since all busses in that area can do both kitimat and terrace 4# routes

[ThatBusGuy]

6 hours ago, InfiNorth said:

I invite people to find another situation where within a single transit "system" (ie BC Transit being a "system") you have shifting time zones... wow. 

Creston isn't even the only one under the BCT umbrella! Fort St. John and Dawson Creek also fall into the same boat of being permanently on MST. But because they're more isolated, it isn't as noticeable from a GTFS perspective since all of their routes are contained within a single timezone. It gets a bit more complicated when you start having trips across multiple timezones at once. With Creston and the rest of East Kootenay, you have some trips in one timezone, some trips in another, and even some that cross the timezone boundary (looking at you, route 56 Creston/Cranbrook). The good news is, GTFS fully supports trips across multiple timezones (one example I remember seeing a while ago was the GTFS for Via Rail, which has trips going all the way across Canada), so there isn't really anything preventing BCT from merging Creston with East Kooteny. In fact there's plenty of arguments to be made for why they should do it. For one, with the current strategy they'll have to update the Creston GTFS every time DST starts or ends in order to set the correct timezone, because for some reason they're currently using America/Vancouver instead of America/Creston which would simply update automatically. For another, they don't currently include route 56 in the GTFS at all because it crosses the timezone boundary, which they don't seem interested in supporting (lazy developers, I tell ya). And of course it would help to unify everything a bit more overall, which isn't really related to the timezone stuff but it's still a reasonable point. So I honestly can't really say why they decided to keep them separate, aside from the fact that timezones are definitely a pretty big factor (because, of course, developers hate having to deal with them!)

For anyone who is not interested in timezones or GTFS, I apologize that you had to be subjected to the above word wall!

[ephrex]

There would be several factors with the Creston routes specifically -- the 56 is essentially a branded taxi service once it gets into Cranbrook, rather than a fixed route service. It's also likely that BCT's software isn't set up to handle multiple timezones -- it's something that is typically only needed for airlines or long distance rail operators, and is virtually never necessary for local transit agencies.