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1 hour ago, northwesterner said:

This is an accurate take. Greyhound got better for many years and First made much needed improvements. But it started to slide about six years ago and has been snowballing lately.

First Made many poor decisions in Canada especially in the West. And not asking for input from people who were around many moons before First came into the picture didnt help either. Alot of runs could of done much better if they had reacted to the market better and had a sustainable model, they should of applied back years ago to drop all bc runs to 1 trip per week giving them the flexibility they needed too and getting rid of some agency buildings should of happened years ago and downsized to 3rd party agency locations.

 

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1 hour ago, northwesterner said:

This is an accurate take. Greyhound got better for many years and First made much needed improvements. But it started to slide about six years ago and has been snowballing lately.

In the last year or so they seemed to clean up *some* of their on time issues but overall it’s just gotten more and more bleak.

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33 minutes ago, roeco said:

First Made many poor decisions in Canada especially in the West. And not asking for input from people who were around many moons before First came into the picture didnt help either. Alot of runs could of done much better if they had reacted to the market better and had a sustainable model, they should of applied back years ago to drop all bc runs to 1 trip per week giving them the flexibility they needed too and getting rid of some agency buildings should of happened years ago and downsized to 3rd party agency locations.

 

This is just objectively false.

I've had this argument with you before.

I've outlined my case based on the business model. 

Operating government mandated routes in Western Canada is a tough model. Not only was GCTC unable to do it, but the numbers for Saskatoon Transportation were beyond abysmal. Greyhound wasn't the only one absolutely struggling out west.

But go ahead and keep saying that if only they'd done these five or six small things, they would have been successful. It's just not true.

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11 hours ago, ns8401 said:

In the last year or so they seemed to clean up *some* of their on time issues but overall it’s just gotten more and more bleak.

Improving on time performance gets a whole lot easier, when you cut out a lot of schedules, as airlines, railroads, and buslines have learned of late....😉

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23 minutes ago, traildriver said:

Improving on time performance gets a whole lot easier, when you cut out a lot of schedules, as airlines, railroads, and buslines have learned of late....😉

After you alienate enough people to not need all those late buses no less 🙂

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Depends? Sometimes it's beyond your control, IE weather traffic as such. Then there other times when "technically" it is your fault. If you don't maintain your fleet, your going to have break downs. Now grant you you can maintain your fleet and still have break downs nothing's  perfect but less of a chance of it happening.

 

As for scheduling I can't comment on that as I don't know how Greyhound does their scheduling on their routes?

 

In any case, if Greyhound does decide to leave, it'll be sad to see them go.

 

The catch then is whom ever does take over be it new owners of Greyhound or other companies taking over their routes?

 

What will it be like?

 

Better?

Worst?

just the same?

 

I'm not in the bus biz just a fan so I can't real comment on how other providers are like, I'll leave that to those that are in the Biz or who are more inverts in the industry then I am  to comment.

 

The thing that I want as bus fan and rider, be it Greyhound or some other provider that they at least provide some service to destinations Greyhound provides/or once provided with at least some trips. Not saying IE every hour to Montreal from Ottawa or several trips to Toronto from Ottawa, but at least a few a day.

 

Just a thought/opion?

 

 

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With the economy slowly opening up again, how long will the Ontario and Quebec government allow Greyhound to sit on their routes with zero service?

Is the minimum obligation for route sustainability out the window? I'm sure there are other bus companies that's literally drooling to take over greyhounds routes, I'm sure there will be an uproar in the industry soon if they don't hurry up and get the dog running.

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56 minutes ago, INowKnowwhY said:

With the economy slowly opening up again, how long will the Ontario and Quebec government allow Greyhound to sit on their routes with zero service?

Is the minimum obligation for route sustainability out the window? I'm sure there are other bus companies that's literally drooling to take over greyhounds routes, I'm sure there will be an uproar in the industry soon if they don't hurry up and get the dog running.

An uproar or a feeding frenzy?

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19 hours ago, INowKnowwhY said:

With the economy slowly opening up again, how long will the Ontario and Quebec government allow Greyhound to sit on their routes with zero service?

Is the minimum obligation for route sustainability out the window? I'm sure there are other bus companies that's literally drooling to take over greyhounds routes, I'm sure there will be an uproar in the industry soon if they don't hurry up and get the dog running.

Think about the fact that the Canadian is not running until November, means that even if it's an essential service, the service levels dont need to be maintained.

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On 6/26/2020 at 8:48 PM, Shaun said:

I guess the issue with Northland would be finding since they are a crown corporation?

They would need approval from the province?

Northland is exempt from the Public Vehicles Act, however, if Northland wanted to operate line runs such as Toronto - New York, Northland would have obtain Operating Authority from NYS DOT to pick up with in NY State, between Buffalo and New York, or since they're self insured, they can pool with a NY or NJ carrier and jointly obtain a NYS DOT Operating Authority to pick up in Buffalo. Coach Canada uses Coach USA Operating Authority and Greyhound Canada uses both Adirondack Trailways and Greyhound Lines Operating Authority.

Since the Union issued a press release about Greyhound Canada forcing their drivers to take a pay cut or they will shut down, I haven't heard anything since the release. However, I did go by the Lakeshore Yard and noticed they are working overtime to get a the buses repaired (I am guessing they brought all the buses from London to Toronto) and the washbay has at least 1 bus, assuming each bus goes in for a VIP clean and disinfecting, like they intend to open up at a moments notice. I am thinking cheap theatrics from the union, I dunno...

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6 hours ago, Megabus Rider said:

Northland is exempt from the Public Vehicles Act, however, if Northland wanted to operate line runs such as Toronto - New York, Northland would have obtain Operating Authority from NYS DOT to pick up with in NY State, between Buffalo and New York, or since they're self insured, they can pool with a NY or NJ carrier and jointly obtain a NYS DOT Operating Authority to pick up in Buffalo. Coach Canada uses Coach USA Operating Authority and Greyhound Canada uses both Adirondack Trailways and Greyhound Lines Operating Authority.

Since the Union issued a press release about Greyhound Canada forcing their drivers to take a pay cut or they will shut down, I haven't heard anything since the release. However, I did go by the Lakeshore Yard and noticed they are working overtime to get a the buses repaired (I am guessing they brought all the buses from London to Toronto) and the washbay has at least 1 bus, assuming each bus goes in for a VIP clean and disinfecting, like they intend to open up at a moments notice. I am thinking cheap theatrics from the union, I dunno...

I’m thinking fix them and sell them.

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1 hour ago, ns8401 said:

I’m thinking fix them and sell them.

If they are going to fix sell them, they wouldn't bother to fix them up. They would just cut their losses and auction them off as is, since you wont get the man hours back. My guess would be that the drivers took the pay cut or there must have been some positive news. 

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7 hours ago, Megabus Rider said:

Northland is exempt from the Public Vehicles Act, however, if Northland wanted to operate line runs such as Toronto - New York, Northland would have obtain Operating Authority from NYS DOT to pick up with in NY State, between Buffalo and New York, or since they're self insured, they can pool with a NY or NJ carrier and jointly obtain a NYS DOT Operating Authority to pick up in Buffalo. Coach Canada uses Coach USA Operating Authority and Greyhound Canada uses both Adirondack Trailways and Greyhound Lines Operating Authority.

Greyhound Canada does not have any line run operating authority between Toronto and New York, nor does Coach Canada (formerly Trentway-Wager).  Both of these Canadian carrier's pool their thru coaches between Toronto and New York with US carrier's.  The US carrier's, may  be owned by the same holding corporation as the Canadian carrier...FirstGroup or Stagecoach, or they may not, Trailways of New York (New York and Adirondack Trailways).  I am not sure about how 'cabotage laws' apply now, but it used to be that carrier's from one nation operating into another could only carry international traffic, and not local traffic wholly within the 'foreign' country.   So....if Northland would want to run thru service to New York City, they would have to do so under those circumstances, but due to the vast difference in mileage beyond the border, not being able to carry local traffic would be a big disadvantage,   They would be much better off to find a US carrier to pool with.   I suppose if they couldn't, they could form their own US subsidiary for that purpose.

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1 hour ago, Shaun said:

If they are going to fix sell them, they wouldn't bother to fix them up. They would just cut their losses and auction them off as is, since you wont get the man hours back. My guess would be that the drivers took the pay cut or there must have been some positive news. 

Front line staff aren't that stupid to accept the proposed cuts. They're all sticking up their middle finger to Greyhound right now and there has been alot of push back. 

On 6/30/2020 at 7:28 PM, ns8401 said:

An uproar or a feeding frenzy?

Haha, feeding frenzy for sure

On 7/1/2020 at 1:35 PM, Shaun said:

Think about the fact that the Canadian is not running until November, means that even if it's an essential service, the service levels dont need to be maintained.

Understood

Check these out:

ATU Canada calling out Greyhounds bluff.

https://watsonlabourlaw.com/greyhound-attempts-to-profit-from-covid-19-pandemic/

ATU Canada bashing the federal Transportation minister

https://www.atucanada.ca/press-releases/transit-union-slams-marc-garneau-allowing-greyhound-canada-threaten

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What about the Montreal Boston run? I know at some point Vermont Transit ran it, but that was some time ago. Not sure who runs it now, what type of licence do they have?

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1 hour ago, MCIBUS said:

What about the Montreal Boston run? I know at some point Vermont Transit ran it, but that was some time ago. Not sure who runs it now, what type of licence do they have?

Last time I took a Greyhound to Manchester Airport 

The leg from Montreal to Manchester was on a Greyhound Us owned coach. 
 

*Note* This was in 2009
 

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4 hours ago, MCIBUS said:

What about the Montreal Boston run? I know at some point Vermont Transit ran it, but that was some time ago. Not sure who runs it now, what type of licence do they have?

Originally Vermont Transit ran the Boston to Burlington segment, with Eastern Greyhound Lines from there to Montreal.  Later, Greyhound bought VT, and later still, merged it into their line.  And that is how it remains...Greyhound all the way.

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17 hours ago, Oc4526 said:

Last time I took a Greyhound to Manchester Airport 

The leg from Montreal to Manchester was on a Greyhound Us owned coach. 
 

*Note* This was in 2009
 

The coach does not matter as much, as Greyhound Lines and Greyhound Canada pooled equipment for most, if not all of their eastern routes which crossed the border. I would regularly see both US and Canadian coaches on runs from Montreal to NYC or Boston. It's more a matter of who the operator is, i.e. a Greyhound Canada or Greyhound Lines employee.

This is more a question to others... I know on the Vancouver-Seattle run the US operator continued through to Vancouver. Toronto-Buffalo runs are done by Canadian drivers. For Greyhound runs from Montreal to the US, are they done with the US drivers all the way to Montreal, or is there a point at where there is a switch between Canadian-based and US-based drivers? I am leaning towards the former, but would like confirmation from someone more knowledgeable than myself on this topic.

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37 minutes ago, Articulated said:

The coach does not matter as much, as Greyhound Lines and Greyhound Canada pooled equipment for most, if not all of their eastern routes which crossed the border. I would regularly see both US and Canadian coaches on runs from Montreal to NYC or Boston. It's more a matter of who the operator is, i.e. a Greyhound Canada or Greyhound Lines employee.

This is more a question to others... I know on the Vancouver-Seattle run the US operator continued through to Vancouver. Toronto-Buffalo runs are done by Canadian drivers. For Greyhound runs from Montreal to the US, are they done with the US drivers all the way to Montreal, or is there a point at where there is a switch between Canadian-based and US-based drivers? I am leaning towards the former, but would like confirmation from someone more knowledgeable than myself on this topic.

You would see Canadian buses in the pool on the Toronto-Buffalo-New York City run, as that is a joint operation between the Canadian and US carrier.  On the Vancouver-Seattle, and the Montreal-New York City run, the entire run is by the US carrier.  If you see a Canadian bus on the latter example's, it is either "borrowed", or part of a longer pooled trip.  For example, at one time some New York City to Montreal trips continue on to Ottawa.  That was a pooled trip, with the Canadian carrier operating from Montreal to Ottawa, and hence the requirement to contribute their pro-rated share of the buses.

 

Now as far as the driver's on the Montreal-New York City trips are concerned, they are all working for the US carrier...whether it is GLI or Adirondack.   They do not change at the border.  However, some of the driver's on that run, a pro-rated percentage, must be Canadian's.   Both GLI and ADT have some Montreal based Canadian driver's.   The GLI ones may even wear GLC uniforms, but they do not work for GLC.   I can't say for certain, but I would guess the same rule applies at Vancouver...some of GLI's driver's on the Seattle run may be Canadian GLI driver's, not GLC  (lucky for them!)...

 

Hope that helps....

Someone asked earlier about the Montreal-Boston run, and I explained that originally, Eastern Greyhound and Vermont Transit pooled thru service, changing carrier's in Burlington.  Since Burlington to Montreal is a relatively short distance, the companies, and the driver's union's set it up, so that VT drivers could go all the way into Montreal, on most trips, and that EGL drivers could go all the way to Boston (or sometimes Springfield depending on route), on their pro-rated share of the mileage, so it all balanced out in the end.  Doing this also allowed expresses to not even stop in Burlington...

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On 7/7/2020 at 8:01 AM, ns8401 said:

I’m thinking fix them and sell them.

That's another option, with this scenario, First could have Greyhound Canada Shut down with equipment sales, use the cash to pay down debt and shut down for good. I mean hey, the writing could be on the wall with the down ward move of pulling out of the West, selling the London Garage to Great Canadian Coaches, moving their corporate office to something small and taking on hand me downs since 2006. Now they have asked their employees to take a pay cut. We'll just have to wait and see.

On 7/7/2020 at 9:37 AM, traildriver said:

Greyhound Canada does not have any line run operating authority between Toronto and New York, nor does Coach Canada (formerly Trentway-Wager).  Both of these Canadian carrier's pool their thru coaches between Toronto and New York with US carrier's.  The US carrier's, may  be owned by the same holding corporation as the Canadian carrier...FirstGroup or Stagecoach, or they may not, Trailways of New York (New York and Adirondack Trailways).  I am not sure about how 'cabotage laws' apply now, but it used to be that carrier's from one nation operating into another could only carry international traffic, and not local traffic wholly within the 'foreign' country.   So....if Northland would want to run thru service to New York City, they would have to do so under those circumstances, but due to the vast difference in mileage beyond the border, not being able to carry local traffic would be a big disadvantage,   They would be much better off to find a US carrier to pool with.   I suppose if they couldn't, they could form their own US subsidiary for that purpose.

"Greyhound Canada does not have any line run operating authority between Toronto and New York, nor does Coach Canada (formerly Trentway-Wager).  Both of these Canadian carrier's pool their thru coaches between Toronto and New York with US carrier's."

That's what I said "Coach Canada uses Coach USA Operating Authority and Greyhound Canada uses both Adirondack Trailways and Greyhound Lines Operating Authority." lol

 

'cabotage laws' yep, I mentioned that too "Northland would have obtain Operating Authority from NYS DOT to pick up with in NY State" lol

 

"They would be much better off to find a US carrier to pool with."

Yep covered that too "they can pool with a NY or NJ carrier" lol

 

You just echoed everything I said but thanks for the confirmation!

 

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7 hours ago, traildriver said:

You would see Canadian buses in the pool on the Toronto-Buffalo-New York City run, as that is a joint operation between the Canadian and US carrier.  On the Vancouver-Seattle, and the Montreal-New York City run, the entire run is by the US carrier.  If you see a Canadian bus on the latter example's, it is either "borrowed", or part of a longer pooled trip.  For example, at one time some New York City to Montreal trips continue on to Ottawa.  That was a pooled trip, with the Canadian carrier operating from Montreal to Ottawa, and hence the requirement to contribute their pro-rated share of the buses.

 

Now as far as the driver's on the Montreal-New York City trips are concerned, they are all working for the US carrier...whether it is GLI or Adirondack.   They do not change at the border.  However, some of the driver's on that run, a pro-rated percentage, must be Canadian's.   Both GLI and ADT have some Montreal based Canadian driver's.   The GLI ones may even wear GLC uniforms, but they do not work for GLC.   I can't say for certain, but I would guess the same rule applies at Vancouver...some of GLI's driver's on the Seattle run may be Canadian GLI driver's, not GLC  (lucky for them!)...

 

Hope that helps....

Someone asked earlier about the Montreal-Boston run, and I explained that originally, Eastern Greyhound and Vermont Transit pooled thru service, changing carrier's in Burlington.  Since Burlington to Montreal is a relatively short distance, the companies, and the driver's union's set it up, so that VT drivers could go all the way into Montreal, on most trips, and that EGL drivers could go all the way to Boston (or sometimes Springfield depending on route), on their pro-rated share of the mileage, so it all balanced out in the end.  Doing this also allowed expresses to not even stop in Burlington...

"However, some of the driver's on that run, a pro-rated percentage, must be Canadian's."

To my knowledge no such rule exists with the exception of the pick up and drop off of a passenger is done with in a State and/or in the US, the service would have to be conducted by a US worker as its domestic work. If the entire trip did only pick ups in the US and only dropped off in Canada, it can be done by either a US or Canadian Driver. That scenario I just mentioned has elements of a Chartered Trip because the Passengers are going to a common destination, Canada. I have spoken with the DOT on legalities on what a Canadian Driver can in the US.

 

"Both GLI and ADT have some Montreal based Canadian driver's."

For that to happen, both carriers have to register as a domestic Corporation in Canada or as a domestic Corporation in the Province of Quebec. Just like Ontario laws, every Employer who has at least 1 employee in Quebec must register with the Commission des normes, de l'équité, de la santé et de la sécurité du travail (CNESST) or simply Quebec Worker's Compensation. While a Foreign Corporation would obtain a Quebec Enterprise Number (NEQ), a Foreign Corporation is basically treated as a non-citizen with the exception to simply conduct business in Quebec and disclose income in Quebec. Also, if they register as a Foreign Corporation, those Canadian Employees would have to claim against the Employer's HQ State Worker's Compensation which would be Texas and New York respectively. A issue would arise as the Canadian Drivers would not have a SSN for tax purposes.  The pool agreements go beyond with just a lease of a bus without a driver, it's the location and type of work dictates who is the driver. While both Carriers would have a valid Bus Transport Permit issued by the CTQ (Commission des transports du Québec), those Carriers can simply register as a Foreign Corporation with a Representative to act on their behalf, However, both the Canadian and Quebec Government would treat those carriers as Foreign and not Domestic. Quebec Worker's Compensation does not recognize a Foreign Corporation.

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23 hours ago, traildriver said:

You would see Canadian buses in the pool on the Toronto-Buffalo-New York City run, as that is a joint operation between the Canadian and US carrier.  On the Vancouver-Seattle, and the Montreal-New York City run, the entire run is by the US carrier.  If you see a Canadian bus on the latter example's, it is either "borrowed", or part of a longer pooled trip.  For example, at one time some New York City to Montreal trips continue on to Ottawa.  That was a pooled trip, with the Canadian carrier operating from Montreal to Ottawa, and hence the requirement to contribute their pro-rated share of the buses.

 

Now as far as the driver's on the Montreal-New York City trips are concerned, they are all working for the US carrier...whether it is GLI or Adirondack.   They do not change at the border.  However, some of the driver's on that run, a pro-rated percentage, must be Canadian's.   Both GLI and ADT have some Montreal based Canadian driver's.   The GLI ones may even wear GLC uniforms, but they do not work for GLC.   I can't say for certain, but I would guess the same rule applies at Vancouver...some of GLI's driver's on the Seattle run may be Canadian GLI driver's, not GLC  (lucky for them!)...

 

Hope that helps....

Someone asked earlier about the Montreal-Boston run, and I explained that originally, Eastern Greyhound and Vermont Transit pooled thru service, changing carrier's in Burlington.  Since Burlington to Montreal is a relatively short distance, the companies, and the driver's union's set it up, so that VT drivers could go all the way into Montreal, on most trips, and that EGL drivers could go all the way to Boston (or sometimes Springfield depending on route), on their pro-rated share of the mileage, so it all balanced out in the end.  Doing this also allowed expresses to not even stop in Burlington...

Thank you for the detailed information! Much appreciated to learn a little more about the internal workings.

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