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Rob Ford's Transportation Plan


vivablue5215
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I'm not going to lie, I like the idea of finishing off the Sheppard Subway Line and extending the Bloor-Danforth Line into Scarborough. On the other hand, I believe that Eglinton Avenue is in some serious need of rapid transit between Don Mills and Keele and if anything, should take precedence over finishing off the Sheppard Avenue line or even building the Sheppard West LRT.

The subway extension north of Steeles should be cancelled and funds should be re-allocated to projects that would actually be serving Torontonians. This is a subway we're talking about, not a suburban commuter line. I find it sickening that they want to extend the Spadina subway AND Yonge line into York Region instead of actually expanding the subway in Toronto where it is so desperately needed.

There's my 2 cents...

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Oooo....k! I guess Ford doesnt realize if he was to eliminate streetcars, that the replacement rate with buses would have to be at the very least, on a 2 to 1 basis to keep up with capacity, (in the case with rt. 501, 3 for1!). With the increased operational costs, where is the savings, not to mention the taffic jam the increased number of buses would produce?! :lol: (Imagine that. . . up to 120 buses slugging it out along Queen as there are currently up to 40 cars on the line in the afternoons and since they are all ALRVs, that would require 3 40' buses for 1 ALRV!. . Hmmmmmm!)

. . . and selling off the streetcars themselves? Who would buy them? Scrap value is a few thousand dollars tops, bearly a drop in the bucket to pay for his plan!

Like to know where he got his numbers from!! :P:P

However, I do agree with MT 0603 on the subway part of the plan.

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This is the problem with our great city....nothing ever gets built anymore, and even when construction starts on a new project, the next wave of politicians comes along and cancells said project. Streetcars, subways or even damn hovercrafts for all, just start a transit project, lock in all $ and just build it. Mr. Ford whom I am a fan of on many issues has lost me on this. The champion of stopping waste now wants to waste all the $ that have already been spent on EA's and planning, tunnel boring machines specific to the project, the preordered vehicles and startover. I give up

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I'm not going to lie, I like the idea of finishing off the Sheppard Subway Line and extending the Bloor-Danforth Line into Scarborough. On the other hand, I believe that Eglinton Avenue is in some serious need of rapid transit between Don Mills and Keele and if anything, should take precedence over finishing off the Sheppard Avenue line or even building the Sheppard West LRT.

The subway extension north of Steeles should be cancelled and funds should be re-allocated to projects that would actually be serving Torontonians. This is a subway we're talking about, not a suburban commuter line. I find it sickening that they want to extend the Spadina subway AND Yonge line into York Region instead of actually expanding the subway in Toronto where it is so desperately needed.

There's my 2 cents...

Yep I totally agree, but what people don't realize or maybe seem to forget is Toronto as a whole is a very very young city compared to other cities even in North America. Toronto is really just a "Yonge" city booming with life, trying to survive the economics of today's dollar for some simple LRT and subway lines that is! :lol: People expect so much more out of Toronto maybe cuz its Toronto! Lol! I mean all we have to do is look around us and we will surely see what's really going on, what really needs to be in place for Toronto to Function properly. I guess we will have to learn from our own mistake and waste money here and there for us really get it!

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I know Rob is thinking "within" the limits, but a BD subway to STC will have many many overruns especially when the guideways enroute to STC are supported for Medium Rail vehicles, and we are putting HRTs in there! no doubt the thing will fall apart on first day if ignored. And if Rob even tries to remove streetcars, we will see giant save our streetcars group even more pissed off. To sum it up, we pretty much got the edminton mayor guy running for mayor, thinking Streetcar == useless junk. I do agree on the extensions, yes, but the sheppard subway should be the only one going to downsview and STC for now, and maybe BD later if its too much for the 6 car T1s to transport them. And to those complaining on downtown access. you could replace every fourth Y-U-S trains with a Sheppard interline which would go from STC, to Downsview (cost efficient if you use the same station, if not, different platform) and then go around, and turn into Sheppard, then back to STC.

just my freespeach opinion :lol:

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I want to know how he came up with this. First off, there is no way they can build that much subway and have it up and running in 4 years. There has been no planning done for it at all and how does he expect the TTC to pay for the operating costs let alone the extra trains they would have to order to run it. Secondly, does he seriously think a subway can fit in the SRT ROW? This is probably the worse Transit plan I've seen from any of the major mayoral candidates.

The subway extension north of Steeles should be cancelled and funds should be re-allocated to projects that would actually be serving Torontonians. This is a subway we're talking about, not a suburban commuter line. I find it sickening that they want to extend the Spadina subway AND Yonge line into York Region instead of actually expanding the subway in Toronto where it is so desperately needed.

I've always thought the same thing. The York U extension, and now the proposed Yonge extension, should not got any further north than Steeles. Before extending the subway north of Steeles they should extended into North Etobicoke and North Scarborough where Torontonians have to ride a bus for 30-40+ minutes to get to a subway station.

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If the Sheppard subway is extended to STC and Downsview and the Bloor-Danforth were extended to STC, my guess is that the current SRT McCowan station will be closed for good and the McCowan yard may be closed or converted into a storage yard for subway vehicles.

Given that the SRT will have to expand its platform to accommodate a six-car subway train, the fate of Ellesmere and Midland stations is very uncertain - since they are among the lowest ridership. Lawrence East is likely to be safe from elimination.

Not only that, my guess is that as many as seven bus routes may be on target to get eliminated (most likely absorbed into other routes), among them being the 10, 131E, 139, 160, 167, 190 and 224. The 139 and 190 will become redundant and are likely on the top of that list.

Split bus routes (including branches) likely for the 84, 85 and 98. 13 Rouge Hill may get resurrected, but going STC - Meadowville/Zoo/Rouge Hill GO Station as part of an 85 split via Sheppard Avenue. Willowdale - Senlac split permanently into two, but both may still serve Sheppard-Yonge (perhaps as part of an interline during certain off-peak hours).

Modifications to 29 and 104 - 104 no longer serves Downsview Station, serves Faywood and Wilson Stations only, reverts back to its pre-November 2009 route, 29 extended to Downsview Station via Wilson Heights as a possible part-time 29C branch.

And possibly a slew of other major changes...

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I'm happy to hear that finally there is some talk about extending the Sheppard "stubway" to Downsview & STC. This is a very good idea since it will bring Torontonians living far north of the BD from the east to the west and vice-verca very fast. Finishing off the Sheppard subway is a very good idea, better than a LRT in my opinion.

As for extending the BD into east Scarborough, again a good idea because eventually the SRT will have to be replaced and I'm talking about the trains. Those SRT trains are very old and nobody knows how to replace those vehicles. By building a new subway into Scarborough from Kennedy (which should've been done originally) would eliminate the worry about what trains should replace the existing SRT trains. Should the BD subway be extended to STC, the value of those condos at STC would go up and potentially bring the land value in the area higher due to easy rapid accessibility. A subway to STC would eliminate the need to transfer trains at Kennedy between the SRT and BD which would be very convenient and time saving for passengers.

As for the extension of the Yonge line to RHC, I think that is another good idea. I know Toronto needs more subways (ex. Eglinton Avenue could use one) but having a subway that goes up to York Region will benefit local traffic on Yonge Street and adjacent streets and prevent traffic congestion and help the people that live north of Steeles to get to their jobs in Toronto faster since they don't have to fight traffic trying to get to Finch Station.

Anyways these are my views and you may not agree with them but I thought I'd share them with you all. I'm glad that finally there is somebody running for mayor that wants to expand the subway system in Toronto. I've always said that Toronto needs a subway like New York City. It would eliminate a lot of single occupied vehicles and cut back on emissions and pollution. I just hope the city won't go broke with the subway expansion, should it happen.

greekguy1326

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I'm happy to hear that finally there is some talk about extending the Sheppard "stubway" to Downsview & STC. This is a very good idea since it will bring Torontonians living far north of the BD from the east to the west and vice-verca very fast. Finishing off the Sheppard subway is a very good idea, better than a LRT in my opinion.

As for extending the BD into east Scarborough, again a good idea because eventually the SRT will have to be replaced and I'm talking about the trains. Those SRT trains are very old and nobody knows how to replace those vehicles. By building a new subway into Scarborough from Kennedy (which should've been done originally) would eliminate the worry about what trains should replace the existing SRT trains. Should the BD subway be extended to STC, the value of those condos at STC would go up and potentially bring the land value in the area higher due to easy rapid accessibility. A subway to STC would eliminate the need to transfer trains at Kennedy between the SRT and BD which would be very convenient and time saving for passengers.

As for the extension of the Yonge line to RHC, I think that is another good idea. I know Toronto needs more subways (ex. Eglinton Avenue could use one) but having a subway that goes up to York Region will benefit local traffic on Yonge Street and adjacent streets and prevent traffic congestion and help the people that live north of Steeles to get to their jobs in Toronto faster since they don't have to fight traffic trying to get to Finch Station.

Anyways these are my views and you may not agree with them but I thought I'd share them with you all. I'm glad that finally there is somebody running for mayor that wants to expand the subway system in Toronto. I've always said that Toronto needs a subway like New York City. It would eliminate a lot of single occupied vehicles and cut back on emissions and pollution. I just hope the city won't go broke with the subway expansion, should it happen.

greekguy1326

Well if it make you feel any better here what wikki says about the 7 train ext in midtown NYC>> In October 2007, the MTA awarded a $1.145 Billion contract to build 7,000 feet (2,100 m) of twin-tube tunnel from the current 7 train terminus in Times Square

Subways cost a pretty penny! THESE DAYS THAT IS*

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Well if it make you feel any better here what wikki says about the 7 train ext in midtown NYC>> In October 2007, the MTA awarded a $1.145 Billion contract to build 7,000 feet (2,100 m) of twin-tube tunnel from the current 7 train terminus in Times Square

And that's without the 10th Avenue station, also.

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The 'Downtown Relief Line' Was supposed to be done by now. Ahem...Network 2011 in 1985...ahem...

Well if it make you feel any better here what wikki says about the 7 train ext in midtown NYC>> In October 2007, the MTA awarded a $1.145 Billion contract to build 7,000 feet (2,100 m) of twin-tube tunnel from the current 7 train terminus in Times Square

Subways cost a pretty penny! THESE DAYS THAT IS*

Well NYC is a different story. They have to blast tunnels for the most part.

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The removal of streetcar proposal part of this deal is definitely NOT going to work. As the person above said, if you replace streetcars on Queen, you're going to create even more gridlock then before because a 40 foot bus has WAY less capacity than an ALRV and I do not think buses can run that far before running out of diesel. No bus route is as long as the Queen streetcar (remember that the Queen streetcar runs from one end of Toronto all the way close to the East end...)

Also, route 505 and 510 @ both Chinatowns will cause MAJOR gridlock if streetcars are replaced by buses (Its already bad as it is, especially during rush hour). We already saw in the past that replacing Spadina with buses made it worse over time and the streetcars returned and it went back to normal.

The Subway part, I do agree though, but can a subway run a full 90 degree curve right out of Kennedy station, no f'ing way.

The only way for Buses to work on downtown arterial roads is to eliminate all parking on those streets, especially on Queen and Dundas.

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As Steve Munro has pointed out, the numbers don't even add up, because $790 million of the $3.7 billion in provincial transit funding is actually earmarked for YRT improvements. Even if you could build that much subway in four years, the money just isn't there.

As for his streetcar plan, regardless of whether you like streetcars, Toronto just spent $1 billion on replacement vehicles. What are you going to do with the new vehicles? Sell them to another city that desperately needs some TTC-gauge light rail vehicles? And then what, replace them with diesel buses at a 4-to-1 ratio? (Don't forget the new streetcars carry 160 passengers each.) So that's 800 new buses needed, on top of the 2000 the TTC has now. And then you have to hire a whole lot of new bus drivers for all those replacement vehicles. This really doesn't sound like a fiscally conservative plan to me...

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No bus route is as long as the Queen streetcar (remember that the Queen streetcar runs from one end of Toronto all the way close to the East end...)

Actually, believe it or not 501 is not the longest TTC surface route. The 54A Lawrence East is about 2km longer running from Yonge St all the way to pretty much the Durham Region border, that is only for the daytime routes too. The longest route of all is the 300A Bloor-Danforth Blue Night, its about 10-15km longer than 501 running from Warden & Danforth across Danforth and Bloor and up the 427 to the Airport.

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Awhile ago, I heard that it would take three 40 foot buses two replace two CLRVs. And it takes 3 CLRVs to take the capacity of 2 ALRVs. So if Rob Ford was to replace all the streetcars, he would have to buy 411 40 foot buses. I calculated it would have taken 78 more CLRVs to have been purchased instead of the 52 ALRVs and added to the 196 CLRVs, (Yes, I even counted the late 4063). I didn't count 2766, 4500, and 4549.

Where would the money come for the 411 buses come from. Not to mention the penalties for cancelling the new streetcars.

The removal of streetcar proposal part of this deal is definitely NOT going to work. As the person above said, if you replace streetcars on Queen, you're going to create even more gridlock then before because a 40 foot bus has WAY less capacity than an ALRV and I do not think buses can run that far before running out of diesel. No bus route is as long as the Queen streetcar (remember that the Queen streetcar runs from one end of Toronto all the way close to the East end...)

Also, route 505 and 510 @ both Chinatowns will cause MAJOR gridlock if streetcars are replaced by buses (Its already bad as it is, especially during rush hour). We already saw in the past that replacing Spadina with buses made it worse over time and the streetcars returned and it went back to normal.

The Subway part, I do agree though, but can a subway run a full 90 degree curve right out of Kennedy station, no f'ing way.

The only way for Buses to work on downtown arterial roads is to eliminate all parking on those streets, especially on Queen and Dundas.

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Awhile ago, I heard that it would take three 40 foot buses two replace two CLRVs. And it takes 3 CLRVs to take the capacity of 2 ALRVs. So if Rob Ford was to replace all the streetcars, he would have to buy 411 40 foot buses. I calculated it would have taken 78 more CLRVs to have been purchased instead of the 52 ALRVs and added to the 196 CLRVs, (Yes, I even counted the late 4063). I didn't count 2766, 4500, and 4549.

Where would the money come for the 411 buses come from. Not to mention the penalties for cancelling the new streetcars.

plus the cost of 2 new bus garages

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If the Sheppard subway is extended to STC and Downsview and the Bloor-Danforth were extended to STC, my guess is that the current SRT McCowan station will be closed for good and the McCowan yard may be closed or converted into a storage yard for subway vehicles.

Given that the SRT will have to expand its platform to accommodate a six-car subway train, the fate of Ellesmere and Midland stations is very uncertain - since they are among the lowest ridership. Lawrence East is likely to be safe from elimination.

Not only that, my guess is that as many as seven bus routes may be on target to get eliminated (most likely absorbed into other routes), among them being the 10, 131E, 139, 160, 167, 190 and 224. The 139 and 190 will become redundant and are likely on the top of that list.

Split bus routes (including branches) likely for the 84, 85 and 98. 13 Rouge Hill may get resurrected, but going STC - Meadowville/Zoo/Rouge Hill GO Station as part of an 85 split via Sheppard Avenue. Willowdale - Senlac split permanently into two, but both may still serve Sheppard-Yonge (perhaps as part of an interline during certain off-peak hours).

Modifications to 29 and 104 - 104 no longer serves Downsview Station, serves Faywood and Wilson Stations only, reverts back to its pre-November 2009 route, 29 extended to Downsview Station via Wilson Heights as a possible part-time 29C branch.

And possibly a slew of other major changes...

First off if the B-D Line got extended to S.T.C. then my advice is to make Midland and Ellesmere Stns into 1.

Secondly if the Sheppard Subway makes it to Downsview there will be little changes done to the bus routes in that area. Mainly it would be the Eastern part to S.T.C. that would see the big changes.

Lets run down your list here.......

10 Van Horne. I don't see that being eliminated or Absorbed with another route. But I do think that 10 Van Horne should be one route with 169 Huntingwood.

10 Van Horne (Vic Park - Don Mills Stn)

10A Van Horne via Huntingwood (S.T.C. - Don Mills Stn)

Actually thinking about it. It would work out good cause the TTC can save 1 bus in the AM Peak and still keep the headways the same on Both routes while PM Peak can see an improvement on Huntingwood by running every 20 minutes from every 30 minutes and not adding an extra bus.

NOW

AM Peak

10 Van Horne - Every 10 Minutes (3 Buses) (30 Minutes Round Trip)

169 Huntingwood - Every 20 Minutes (4 Buses) (80 Minutes Round Trip)

Total Buses 7

PM Peak

10 Van Horne - Every 10 Minutes (3 Buses) (30 Minutes Round Trip)

169 Huntingwood - Every 30 Minutes (3 Buses) (90 Minutes Round Trip)

Total Buses 6

PROPOSED

AM Peak and PM Peak

10 Van Horne - Every 20 Minutes (1.5 Buses) (30 Minutes Round Trip)

10A Van Horne via Huntingwood - Every 20 Minutes (4.5 Buses) (90 Minutes Round Trip)

Total Buses 6. 10 Minute frequency is kept on Van Horne and improved PM Peak service on Huntingwood.

Off Peak can remain Every 30 Minutes with 3 buses but the only change is the route number from 169A to 10A.

Anyways back on subject......

131E would get the axe if the B-D went to Scarb T.C.

139E won't get the axe even though it should in my opinion.

160 Won't get the axe if Sheppard Line made it to Downsview

167 would stay as is.

190 Yes would be axed

224 Would stay as is

Why split 98 Willowdale - Senlac especially when you've said it would interline at off peak hours? Might as well keep 98 as is.

84 wouldn't get split either. If anything maybe a reduced bus service between Sheppard - Yonge Stn and Downsview Stn (Again if the Sheppard Subway went to Downsview)

85 is the same deal. Reduced bus service along the subway line then frequent service beyond that.

Now for the 104 Faywood Deal. The reason why 104 Faywood is going to Downsview Stn via Wilson Heights is to replace the service that was on Wilson Heights when 105 Dufferin North and 117 Alness was running there. 105 and 117 now runs along Allen Rd / Dufferin St to make use of the bus lanes so the next best solution to replace service on Wilson Heights is the 104 Faywood.

29C to Downsview Stn? Bad idea. here's what I'm understanding from you. Eliminate the 104 on Wilson Heights North of Sheppard but add (extend) the 29 Dufferin to Downsview Stn via Wilson Heights south of Sheppard where that area is served by 104 Faywood along Faywood Blvd. here's the reason why it won't work.....

1. You've just screwed the riders along Wilson Heights North of Sheppard Ave

2. You're adding service on Wilson Heights south of Sheppard Ave where that area could easily be handled by the 104 Faywood. That's one reason why 105 Dufferin North (Back then 105 Wilson Heights) was shortened to end at Downsview Stn when Downsview Stn was first opened.

3. 29 Dufferin is a bad route to make extentions due to unreliable service along Dufferin St south of Wilson Ave. So Wilson Heights will be part of that mess too where the possible riders would get fed up to a point that they'll take the 104 again. There goes your ridership for your proposed 29C Dufferin.

And that's my rant!!

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From what I would assume, it would take a bi-articulated bus to replace a single CLRV car, which would be a pain, because it has to be imported from brazil, unless orion wants to make some giant changes and adds a really powerful engine to "counter" the jackknifing that will frequently occur, especially at around the st.clair and Bathurst area, and for a ALRV replacement would call in a quad-articulated bus, which isn't even made! so now you would have to A) Get some experimental projects on, or B. put 2 Bi-articulated buses on the route, which will cause major congestion, compared to a alrv/clrv.And Sheppard should the the extension, since the BD line is almost always full, but on the other side, SRT is dieing, but TTC would have to find a work around, since using existing SRT structure and "converting" it is a giant no-no, since theres already residential complaints on the SRT, and HRTs make "mini earthquakes". And like I said before, the sheppard subway should be interlined as rush hour only service which every 4th Sheppard train will use the YUS, so there could be a "relief" of some sort, but sure, it will piss off people at NYC and Finch STNS, but provides an easier, more direct connection to downtown.

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From what I would assume, it would take a bi-articulated bus to replace a single CLRV car, which would be a pain, because it has to be imported from brazil, unless orion wants to make some giant changes and adds a really powerful engine to "counter" the jackknifing that will frequently occur, especially at around the st.clair and Bathurst area, and for a ALRV replacement would call in a quad-articulated bus, which isn't even made!

Bi-articulated buses are illegal in Ontario under the Highway Traffic Act as they are over the maximum allowed length of a passenger road vehicle... so they're never going to happen in Toronto.

And guys, don't worry about Ford's plan to get rid of streetcars... city council will very likely be made up of mostly incumbents and such a plan would never get their approval. Don't forget that the mayor only has one vote on council just like everyone else.

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And like I said before, the sheppard subway should be interlined as rush hour only service which every 4th Sheppard train will use the YUS, so there could be a "relief" of some sort, but sure, it will piss off people at NYC and Finch STNS, but provides an easier, more direct connection to downtown.

I highly doubt the TTC would want to experiment the Subway interlined service again given what went on when the Yonge University (Not Spadina) line was interlined with the Bloor - Danforth back when the Bloor - Danforth opened in 1966. The line was like this

Keele - Woodbine

Keele - Eglinton (Via Downtown)

Woodbine - Eglinton (Via Downtown)

The interlined service back then only lasted 6 Months before TTC figured out that it won't work. What if one line (Say YUS) has a hold up? then the Sheppard line would be screwed too. Same problem back in 1966. That's why the interlined service back then didn't last long.

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