GRT Route Discussion

[Guest GRT Kid]

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[Transit 20]

ok thanks bc i was on the 11 downtown and it changed to the 25 at 6.30 pm

[TC60102N]

Route 11 is post to interline with 3 Ottawa South at Forest Glen during the evening (and vice versa)

Thanks for clearing that up, I thought the route 3 was post to do that.

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Route 11 is post to interline with 3 Ottawa South at Forest Glen during the evening (and vice versa)

Starting Tuesday that is.

ok thanks bc i was on the 11 downtown and it changed to the 25 at 6.30 pm

There are no trips scheduled to interline with the 25 from the 11. Perhaps it was just a bus going out of service and they needed a change-off or it could have been something else.

[902]

Does anyone know if the rt 15 interlines with any routes at Charles st?

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Does anyone know if the rt 15 interlines with any routes at Charles st?

WEEKDAY AM PEAK 2>15>2

WEEKDAY MIDDAY 1>15>25

WEEKDAY PM PEAK 2>15>2

WEEKDAY EVENINGS 22>15>4

SATURDAYS UNTIL ~5PM 1>15>25

SATURDAYS AFTER ~5PM 1>15>1

There are a couple trips that do other things as well, but they are exceptions to the rule.

[902]

WEEKDAY AM PEAK 2>15>2

WEEKDAY MIDDAY 1>15>25

WEEKDAY PM PEAK 2>15>2

WEEKDAY EVENINGS 22>15>4

SATURDAYS UNTIL ~5PM 1>15>25

SATURDAYS AFTER ~5PM 1>15>1

There are a couple trips that do other things as well, but they are exceptions to the rule.

Wow that was more then I thought it would be, Thanks.

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Time to go off on a tangent here...

I want to perform an experiment. Before explaining what the experiment is, I would like people's answer to this question...

Which route map/schedule of the two linked below is easier to understand in terms of being a passenger finding out which bus goes which DIRECTION?

One I threw together quickly (don't mind the numbers of other routes for the moment)...

- REVISED

GRT schedule of same route...

http://www.grt.ca/web/transit.nsf/DocID/38...pdf?openelement

I'll reply again later once a few people have said what their opinion is......

[mpd618]

Which route map/schedule of the two linked below is easier to understand in terms of being a passenger finding out which bus goes which DIRECTION?

Maybe the official one is slightly more readable, but honestly both are virtually unreadable because that is not a decipherable bus schedule. (Garbage in / garbage out.) The only way I would take that bus is based on Google Maps instructions, and even that's pretty unlikely.

[Felix]

Time to go off on a tangent here...

I want to perform an experiment. Before explaining what the experiment is, I would like people's answer to this question...

Which route map/schedule of the two linked below is easier to understand in terms of being a passenger finding out which bus goes which DIRECTION?

I prefer the official (old) schedule. While it is a bit hard on the eyes, it is at least easier to comprehend.

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Hmmm, I think the schedule design is getting in the way of testing what I wanted.

Anyways, I'm trying to see whether adding the branch letters to the route makes any difference in determining which trips do what routing (they could have been added to the old timetables as well, but given that GRT has moved to a design similar to the one I created anyways I created one similar looking). In THAT respect (adding branches) is the new one any easier to understand (pretend the routing info is over the old style street map with the bus stops on it for a moment...if that's possible)?

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Posted a revisied version version of the new map (although still the new style map).

[FIDO]

Time to go off on a tangent here...

I want to perform an experiment. Before explaining what the experiment is, I would like people's answer to this question...

Which route map/schedule of the two linked below is easier to understand in terms of being a passenger finding out which bus goes which DIRECTION?

One I threw together quickly (don't mind the numbers of other routes for the moment)...

- REVISED

GRT schedule of same route...

http://www.grt.ca/web/transit.nsf/DocID/38...pdf?openelement

I'll reply again later once a few people have said what their opinion is......

Your "33" REVISED version is VERY CONFUSING!

I don't think I'm the first person to say I HATE THE NEW SIMPLIFIED MAPS! There is NO detail on them as for routing, possible detour routes, etc.! What a joke! Even the customers can't figure out where they want to get off! More on the driver to sort out ..................... You can't listen to the INIT, if you don't know the "cross street" you're looking for!

BRING BACK THE OLD ROUTE MAPS A.S.A.P! (Even though we know that won't even be a possibility until some time next year because of the quantities they printed!)

F*ck, I hate those new maps!

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Your "33" REVISED version is VERY CONFUSING!

I don't think I'm the first person to say I HATE THE NEW SIMPLIFIED MAPS! There is NO detail on them as for routing, possible detour routes, etc.! What a joke! Even the customers can't figure out where they want to get off! More on the driver to sort out ..................... You can't listen to the INIT, if you don't know the "cross street" you're looking for!

BRING BACK THE OLD ROUTE MAPS A.S.A.P! (Even though we know that won't even be a possibility until some time next year because of the quantities they printed!)

F*ck, I hate those new maps!

[sigh] my point is lost again, I am regreting bringing up the topic, anyways...

What's confusing about it, just the map style?? If that's the case yes I agree, but that's not what I'm trying to determine; the only reason I'm using that map style is because it is similar to what GRT has moved to. If necessary ignore the map for the moment (pretend I didn't post it if necessary); consider that the current 33 routing (which does essentially everything shown) just has the number 33 on the destination sign regardless of which direction, extensions or differing routing it does. I want to know if identifying the various branches by letters on the signs (similar to that of most other transit systems) and co-ordinating such with the maps (and it could be on ANY style map) showing which trip does what would improve the ability of customers to figure out where the bus is going.

[FIDO]

[sigh] my point is lost again, I am regreting bringing up the topic, anyways...

What's confusing about it, just the map style?? If that's the case yes I agree, but that's not what I'm trying to determine; the only reason I'm using that map style is because it is similar to what GRT has moved to. If necessary ignore the map for the moment (pretend I didn't post it if necessary); consider that the current 33 routing (which does essentially everything shown) just has the number 33 on the destination sign regardless of which direction, extensions or differing routing it does. I want to know if identifying the various branches by letters on the signs (similar to that of most other transit systems) and co-ordinating such with the maps (and it could be on ANY style map) showing which trip does what would improve the ability of customers to figure out where the bus is going.

Are you (they) thinking of adding "extensions" to the Routes, similar to the "7's", as in 7D, 7C, 7E? IMHO it won't work. There were once Route 8's numbered that way, and you don't see them anymore. With the 7's, nobody ever reads the sign to see which way the bus is headed! 7E heading to Columbia passes by University and all of a sudden the bell is ringing, people are running to the front; "Don't you turn at University?" "Is this bus going to the Mall?" ......................... Read the damn sign before you board! Yes, it's going to the University, BUT, it's going via Columbia St.! (And Yes, the 7D would have gotten you there sooner if you only looked at the sign! ................ or jumped off at King & "U", ran across the Street, and boarded the 12, 8, or possibly the 7 sitting in front of "Pizza Pizza"!

So, back to the question at hand. No, please don't confuse the system any more than it already is! 33A, 33B, 33C, 33D, 33E, 33F ............. NO!

And, for "map style" ................. I liked the old version, not the "cute, pretty one" that has the street route shown as a "straight line"! Are they planning on making every route map into a "straight line" just like the iXpress ones? (Joke!)

Oh well ......................... it's GRT! ( Gotta Really Try )

[mpd618]

What's confusing about it, just the map style?? If that's the case yes I agree, but that's not what I'm trying to determine; the only reason I'm using that map style is because it is similar to what GRT has moved to. If necessary ignore the map for the moment (pretend I didn't post it if necessary); consider that the current 33 routing (which does essentially everything shown) just has the number 33 on the destination sign regardless of which direction, extensions or differing routing it does. I want to know if identifying the various branches by letters on the signs (similar to that of most other transit systems) and co-ordinating such with the maps (and it could be on ANY style map) showing which trip does what would improve the ability of customers to figure out where the bus is going.

I think that your schedule table isn't any easier to understand than the regular one, and following five different lines is nearly impossible on the map. But I can't stress enough how profoundly complex that routing is.

If the point is to improve the ability to figure out where the bus is going, I think the only serious way is to standardize the route. If the point of this route is to get people to and from Forest Glen terminal, there just is not sufficient justification for doing the trip in so many different ways. Pick a loop and stick with it.

Good quality maps and information can highlight underlying simplicity, but you need to have that simplicity in the first place.

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Any opinions on the "yea" side of this? And I mean not just 33 specifically (and note that most of the industrial runs in the GRT system are overly complex; the 72 has 5 different routings alone as well), but generally in the overall GRT system.

My original thinking on this is that "generally speaking" most of our customers know how to figure out where to go given the best information possible. I know we deal with the no-brainers (for lack of a better term), but just like police, we deal with a lot of the low-lifes and know-nothings who stand out in a crowd and the ones who go about their merry way day to day are essentially invisible to us.

Having said that, if I'm an average rider and I go to a transit trip planner, I can end up with a trip that is suggesting I take route 33C for whatever reason, it will identify '33C' on the trip planner (google, easyGO, whatever) rather than just '33'. So I can use that information and look at a schedule/map and see exactly where 33C SPECIFICALLY goes, rather than just a mash of 33's. Then when I get to the bus stop I can wait for a 33C to arrive and if 33A's or B's show up (which don't go where I need to for the sake of the argument) I can wave them by if necessary rather than asking the operator do you go to "this street and that street because the map says to take 33" and then the operator can go "well, it's not this 33 it's only certain 33's and only 33's at certain times of the day, ya just kinda gotta know when time the bus is that goes where".

A better example of this is the 9 Lakeshore, whether it goes to the UW or short-turns at King/University it's still just a '9'. Then you try to explain that no the 9 doesn't go to UW, it stops going there at a certain time you just kinda gotta know when. If it were labelled A and B respectively it's a simple the 9A goes to UW and the 9B does not end of story.

Or another example...Route 1 (just take the via River for example, pretend Lorraine doesn't exist for the moment). When you just see "1 Stanley Park via River" as it show currently on the destination sign, how do you know if that is a bus going down the Belleview extension, is there any way to tell looking at the bus itself? No, none. If you had the 1A and 1B there would be a noticeable difference and someone could look at the bus that says 1A and look at a map that says only the 1B goes to where I need to, I'll wait for the next 1B to arrive.

As for former route 8 branches they were terrible as they only made sense when you look at how the Route 8 is actually scheduled in the scheduling software; in the scheduling software it is NOT a figure-eight route, it's a run that starts at Fairview and ends at King/University with Charles Street in the middle and without looking at a map it might as well be a straight line from south to north. At the time, the A branch went Courtland-Weber, the B branch went East-Westmount. However, when you turn the 8 into a figure-eight (which it currently is for all customer pruposes) those branch letters don't make sense any longer because you generally think of the Charles Street Terminal as the start point and you have two A's going two completely different/opposite directions from the Charles Street Terminal and likewise for the B's as well. So, in that respect I don't think that's a fair comparison.

A majority of transit systems can make branch letters work, can we not? I sometime think of TTC's routes of which several are highly complex, like '39 Finch East' which has a 39, 39A, 39B, 39C, 39D, 39E and 39G http://www3.ttc.ca/Routes/39/Eastbound.jsp or the 85 Sheppard East which has last I checked 85, 85A, 85B, 85C, 85D, 85F, 85G, 85H and 85J

[Nova4]

In relation to the above topic, I think asigning letters to the route numbers to tell riders which way the bus is going would be a good idea. It would take some time to catch on but I think it would be beneficial. The other solution is to just make the routing standardized for the entire day and not do the little extentions or detours.

Unrelated to the above discussion, has anyone ever suggested having the 29 Keats Way depart the from the main enterence rather than the exit off ring road it uses now? This way, it could serve the stop at University and Seagram which is usually packed with students waiting for the 12 to take them up the street basically. During rush hours, this usually means the 12 runs late.

[Greater Golden Horseshoe Transit]

Unrelated to the above discussion, has anyone ever suggested having the 29 Keats Way depart the from the main enterence rather than the exit off ring road it uses now? This way, it could serve the stop at University and Seagram which is usually packed with students waiting for the 12 to take them up the street basically. During rush hours, this usually means the 12 runs late.

Funny you should mention this, it's an agenda item at our next Scheduling Committee Meeting in a few weeks time. Originally the 29 was a stand-alone route so there was no way to maintain the 30min. routing while turning the bus around anywhere other than entering the UW via Seagram and exiting via the ramp to University Ave closer to Westmount; now that it's interlined coming from the 31 there should be no reason for the bus not to be able to leave via Seagram Drive and pick up the University/Seagram 8/12 stop going to Westmount.

[vivablue5215]

Unrelated to the above discussion, has anyone ever suggested having the 29 Keats Way depart the from the main enterence rather than the exit off ring road it uses now? This way, it could serve the stop at University and Seagram which is usually packed with students waiting for the 12 to take them up the street basically. During rush hours, this usually means the 12 runs late.

Yes.

I now see students waiting for the 12 or 29 on the sidewalk on Seagram, then running to which one comes first. Some of them even said how it's stupid they have two different stops serving roughly the same area.

Another reason why people are blind of the existence of the 29. They're used to walking to University Ave for the 12.

[Transit 20]

hey everybody i got a question with all the university runs full to over flowing is there any way the GRT could run the iXpress Fairview through the week to help the 7 9 12 13 ?

[Guest GRT Kid]

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[vivablue5215]

hey everybody i got a question with all the university runs full to over flowing is there any way the GRT could run the iXpress Fairview through the week to help the 7 9 12 13 ?

They do during rush hours. It's just not listed in the schedule as it's supposed to be meant for UW students only.

And as GRT Kid noted above, how does the iXpress help with the 12 and 13 loads (and even the 9 to an extent)?

[Nova4]

They do during rush hours. It's just not listed in the schedule as it's supposed to be meant for UW students only.

And as GRT Kid noted above, how does the iXpress help with the 12 and 13 loads (and even the 9 to an extent)?

Speaking of students, I had an idea on my way home on the 9:45pm 12 Fairview Park coming from UW (which was PACKED which resulted in people being turned away). The 29 Keats Way begins service roughly at 7:15am and ends around 7pm. If the 29 was implimented to handle the overload of students, it makes sense for it to run during high demand times. Most students (with some exceptions) have the majority of their classes in the late morning-late evening. Due to an increase in the number of students both universites have accepted over the past two years, many have had to push classes into later time slots when rooms are available. So, my suggestion is this:

- begin the 29 around 9:30am and extend it to 10:30pm to meet the demand of the students who are intended to use it. Service would run every 30 minutes as per usual. It would leave via the main South Campus enterence to increase the number of students that ride it.

- after 8:00pm, instead of the 12 going down Keats Way, it could continue going on University Ave to Erb St, make a right on Erb and continue back up to Fischer-Hallman Rd and resume regular routing. This would save at least 5-8 minutes from stopping at every stop along Keats Way during the evening when the 12 seems to be late the most. During the day it would remain with its current routing. Perhaps during high peak times. there could be "12 University and King Express" buses that simply depart from Highland Hills, make a right at Fischer-Hallman and University and continue on University directly to Hickory.

This is just some ideas. Maybe I'm living in an ideal world.

[Transit 20]

hey everbody i was talking to a GRT driver yesterday and he said the same thing nova4 did i was on the 12 at 3.00 pm yesterday and it was full to over flowing from Westmount and university to king and university were i got off and got the 8 downtown and that was even full i think they need to stop having the 12 going down Keats way and having it going down university to highland hills mall