Motor Coach Industries general discussion

[Doppelkupplung]

2 hours ago, Shaun said:

I doubt that going out in their own will improve sales but perhaps the European transit busses they have might have a place in the north American market? 

Its too dominated by New Flyer and Nova (add Gillig if you want). If Setra wanted to, they would have introduced the S415NF here. Its essentially a Citaro, but has the Mercedes badge scratched out, and Setra written over in crayon. Maybe some headlights too. But, Orion was Daimler's bus offering here in NA, and look what happened there. Its pretty self explanatory. 

1 hour ago, Chinese Daniel said:

If i am a boss In USA and Canada bus fleet, I will stay with Prevost or MCI, Because they are made in Usa and Canada.

I'm pretty sure the S417 was built in North America as well...

[northwesterner]

3 hours ago, Shaun said:

There where a lot of comments on this board with the lack of reliability with the Setra units, and the companies that took them on mostly had them sitting around more than they where on the road. 

I doubt that going out in their own will improve sales but perhaps the European transit busses they have might have a place in the north American market? 

I've been out of the charter bus business for about 3.5 years. 

But when I was in it, we had a competitor who had an all Setra fleet. One day I was over at his office going over a big event where we were subcontracting a bunch of work to him. I asked - why do you buy Setra's and what is your experience with them. 

 

He said that he bought them because dollar for dollar they were substantially cheaper than a similar age / mileage Prevost or MCI. He said the big problem is that mechanically, the systems are very very different from Prevost or MCI, so what typically happens is an operator is in a pinch for some new equipment, Setra makes them a deal to take 4 or 5 units and they can deliver fast. They either buy them outright or lease them. 

Sidebar - Prevosts and MCIs are more alike than they are different. We had a long time, all MCI fleet, and after a merger, received a handful of XL45s. Our mechanics ordered a manual, put them up on the lift, and got to work as if it was equipment they'd been maintaining for decades. These guys had never worked on LeMirage or X-series Prevosts in their careers, but were able to decipher the systems as if they'd worked on them for years. A few months later our company brought some Setras in for a giant convention from a different division. We not only had a mechanic from that division appear to work on the Setras, but also our company wide maintenance chief. As they were going through some of the basics of the systems with my shop ... there was a lot of "what the heck? why would do that? I have to do what?" type comments. They are very, very different.

So, back to my conversation with the competitor. So a few years go by. The Setra's end up as the orphans of the fleet. A handful of Setras in a yard full of Prevosts or MCIs or even Van Hools. They're very different from the shop to work on, they're very different for the drivers to drive, and ultimately no one really likes them because they are different. They take longer to repair due to lack of familiarity, you may have to wait longer for parts (because you don't stock as much for a smaller fleet) and  as soon as they are able to, these coaches are sold in the secondary market. 

The competitor would scoop them up at a substantially lower capital cost versus a different manufacturer. Because his whole fleet is Setra, his mechanics are experts on how to work on them. His drivers operate nothing but Setras, so they know the intricacies of their quirks. He keeps them on the road, racks up the revenue, and makes smaller financing payments. There are many successful operators of Setras across the US, fleets large and small. But they seem to be unable to penetrate because they are so different from the other vehicles. 

Later, my company was bought out and I spent six months at a subsidiary of another large charter operator in my city. I was tangentially involved with the charter operation where we had a shiny, well maintained, but hodgepodge fleet of mostly Prevosts and VanHools, but also a couple of Setras and MCIs. Once again, the drivers would gladly go between the Prevosts, VanHools, and MCIs, but only a few of them would do anything but grumble heavily when they saw they were assigned a Setra. A couple of them said - they would have no problem driving a Setra if they drove one every day but there is just too much to get used to up front to be bouncing in and out of them on a day to day basis. The shop kept them running well but on occasion would be totally befuddled by something like an overheating issue (which, IIRC, was caused by an air lock in the cooling pipes, which did something crazy like ran the length of the coach from front to back in the luggage racks to feed the heating system up front ... it's been a few years but I remember hearing the explanation and it was something totally wild like that). 

Again, in a fleet with other vehicle types in it, they are the odd ones out. 

Personally, I like how they look, I like the drivers area, visibility and layout, and I like a lot of the features. I've never driven one (I assumed I would when I was at that company that had them, but I ended up leaving for graduate school before it happened) but really would love to spend some time behind the wheel in them to get a real feel for the equipment.

[Doppelkupplung]

I suppose alot of the parts/maintenance related issues were due to the fact that they were equipped with the OM471? I don't recall any other bus offering that in NA. 

The situation here in NA when it comes to maintenance and operation I feel is the inverse in Europe. In Europe, Setra and Mercedes are the Prevost and MCI of coaches, so to speak. Setra and Mercedes share a range of engines for a range of buses in Europe, which makes their maintenance much easier, and parts can be found and ordered quicker than they are here. European operators seem to favor Daimler coaches over say, Scania or Volvo. 

Personally, I like Setra as well. Really good looking buses, although their 2003 design has aged a bit. But always been a fan of the S431DT and 415NF. 

[Chinese Daniel]

11 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Its too dominated by New Flyer and Nova (add Gillig if you want). If Setra wanted to, they would have introduced the S415NF here. Its essentially a Citaro, but has the Mercedes badge scratched out, and Setra written over in crayon. Maybe some headlights too. But, Orion was Daimler's bus offering here in NA, and look what happened there. Its pretty self explanatory. 

I'm pretty sure the S417 was built in North America as well...

No, S407 and S417 was build form Germany.

[Chinese Daniel]

13 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I suppose alot of the parts/maintenance related issues were due to the fact that they were equipped with the OM471? I don't recall any other bus offering that in NA. 

The situation here in NA when it comes to maintenance and operation I feel is the inverse in Europe. In Europe, Setra and Mercedes are the Prevost and MCI of coaches, so to speak. Setra and Mercedes share a range of engines for a range of buses in Europe, which makes their maintenance much easier, and parts can be found and ordered quicker than they are here. European operators seem to favor Daimler coaches over say, Scania or Volvo. 

Personally, I like Setra as well. Really good looking buses, although their 2003 design has aged a bit. But always been a fan of the S431DT and 415NF. 

The OM471 was brother engine of DD13, they almost was the same, only they fly wheel was different, i wish MCI and Prevost can make Artic caoch again.

[Doppelkupplung]

2 hours ago, Chinese Daniel said:

i wish MCI and Prevost can make Artic caoch again.

I bet alot of technicians don't...

[Bus_Medic]

Especially when the high capacity niche can be filled by double deck coaches now. Nevermind that wheelchair accessibility is now top of mind and all double deckers have that base covered without investing many extra engineering hours.

[Shaun]

So how likely is it for charter operators to pick up Alexander Dennis super low floor units? VS Vanhool which one has more cargo capacity? 

[Doppelkupplung]

15 minutes ago, Shaun said:

So how likely is it for charter operators to pick up Alexander Dennis super low floor units? VS Vanhool which one has more cargo capacity? 

ADL buses are tailored more towards commuter service. Even in the UK, where they get most of their revenue from, they only sell LF buses with variation in length, alongside the standard 35 foot DD bus (E400), as well as the DD commuter coach, the E500, and the SuperLos we see here. 

The capacity game goes to the VanHool, which is expected, as those units perform long haul trips i.e. Megabus M24 from NYC, or the Toronto-Montreal service. 

40 minutes ago, Bus_Medic said:

Especially when the high capacity niche can be filled by double deck coaches now. Nevermind that wheelchair accessibility is now top of mind and all double deckers have that base covered without investing many extra engineering hours.

I heard that Prevost artic thing was a maintenance nightmare. 

[Bus_Medic]

33 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

ADL buses are tailored more towards commuter service. Even in the UK, where they get most of their revenue from, they only sell LF buses with variation in length, alongside the standard 35 foot DD bus (E400), as well as the DD commuter coach, the E500, and the SuperLos we see here. 

The capacity game goes to the VanHool, which is expected, as those units perform long haul trips i.e. Megabus M24 from NYC, or the Toronto-Montreal service. 

I heard that Prevost artic thing was a maintenance nightmare. 

‘Twas. Thirsty too.

there’s a reason why they only made about 50.

These may be if interest to some:

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/bus-stop-classic/bus-stop-classic-1958-kassbohrer-setra-continental-trailways-super-golden-eagle-strike-two-for-the-articulated-highway-bus/

 

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/history-capsule-1946-kaiser-articulated-bus/

 

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/bus-stop-classic/bus-stop-classic-prevost-h5-60-1988-1992-youre-going-to-need-a-biggggg-parking-space-for-that/

[Transit geek]

1 hour ago, MiWay0310 said:

ADL buses are tailored more towards commuter service. Even in the UK, where they get most of their revenue from, they only sell LF buses with variation in length, alongside the standard 35 foot DD bus (E400), as well as the DD commuter coach, the E500, and the SuperLos we see here. 

With ADL's success in the DD market, it is probably not surprising that ADL or its predecessors have never made articulated buses of any kind.

[northwesterner]

21 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

I suppose alot of the parts/maintenance related issues were due to the fact that they were equipped with the OM471? I don't recall any other bus offering that in NA.

Who provides dealer support for that engine? Detroit? If it's Detroit, no problem, dealers are all over the place. If its someone else, than that would be a bigger problem.

There are plenty of decade old Setra S417s out there with Series 60. Generally speaking, the maintenance issues were not with the drivetrain.

[Doppelkupplung]

46 minutes ago, Transit geek said:

With ADL's success in the DD market, it is probably not surprising that ADL or its predecessors have never made articulated buses of any kind.

Also because their main market, the UK, has not generally not been a huge fan for artics, and neither has its operators really ever needed them with the popularity of the DDs. Save TFL, Arriva and a handful of other UK operators, artics were never really ordered too often, and if they were, the orders were generally small. 

32 minutes ago, northwesterner said:

Who provides dealer support for that engine? Detroit? If it's Detroit, no problem, dealers are all over the place. If its someone else, than that would be a bigger problem.

There are plenty of decade old Setra S417s out there with Series 60. Generally speaking, the maintenance issues were not with the drivetrain.

I learned about the DD connection after I posted, so yes, I suppose that's less of a problem. What were the maintenance issues with then? 

[XN40]

OM417 is just a rebranded DD13.

[Doppelkupplung]

12 hours ago, XN40 said:

OM417 is just a rebranded DD13.

Do the 457, 502 have a DD connection as well, like the 471? 

[Chinese Daniel]

8 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

Do the 457, 502 have a DD connection as well, like the 471? 

In Mercedes-Benz new euro 6 engine line, Will be have OM470/471(DD13)/472(DD15 North America only) /473(DD16)/, new engine also use DOHC design, was different than OM501 or OM502 /V6/V8 design.

You maybe see OM502LA engine in SOME Mobile Crane, same of 457.

 

[A. Wong]

Quote

Motor Coach Industries Inc. (MCI), the U.S. subsidiary of New Flyer Industries Inc., announced today that EvoBus GmBH (Daimler) has terminated the distribution rights agreement (DRA) for German-built Setra motorcoaches in the U.S. and Canada effective June 29, 2018.

Under previous private equity ownership, MCI entered into the DRA as part of a transaction that resulted in Daimler owning 10% of the equity of MCI in 2012. When New Flyer acquired 100% of the equity of MCI in December 2015, the DRA remained in place. The models covered by the agreement were the Setra S 407 and S 417 motorcoaches, introduced by Daimler in North America in 2003. Since 2012, MCI has sold only 282 new Setra coaches.

http://www.metro-magazine.com/motorcoach/news/727947/mci-to-cease-distributing-daimler-s-setra-coaches

[Doppelkupplung]

This is a mix of both Cummins and MCI:

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108005258/en/Transporting-Next-Generation-Cummins-Announces-Availability-X12-Powered

I believe this upcoming X12 is the highest output we will have seen on an MCI (455bhp), making it the most powerful we've seen in Canada? I feel like I hear someone already calling BS on that though...Apparently its also the lightest engine compared to its competitors, weighing in at 2300 and a bit lbs. Still retains the 12L platform though, although in a smaller size.

 

[Chinese Daniel]

11 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

This is a mix of both Cummins and MCI:

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108005258/en/Transporting-Next-Generation-Cummins-Announces-Availability-X12-Powered

I believe this upcoming X12 is the highest output we will have seen on an MCI (455bhp), making it the most powerful we've seen in Canada? I feel like I hear someone already calling BS on that though...Apparently its also the lightest engine compared to its competitors, weighing in at 2300 and a bit lbs. Still retains the 12L platform though, although in a smaller size.

 

Some European Caoch like Neoplan and VDL can get 550HP engine, 455Hp just a joke.

[northwesterner]

1 hour ago, Chinese Daniel said:

Some European Caoch like Neoplan and VDL can get 550HP engine, 455Hp just a joke.

What is the joke?

[Doppelkupplung]

1 hour ago, Chinese Daniel said:

Some European Caoch like Neoplan and VDL can get 550HP engine, 455Hp just a joke.

Don't forget that the physical geography in Europe is vastly different from the large majority of Canada. In Europe, every country save the Netherlands has significant mountainous terrain where buses operate. This is a reason why higher power outputs are offered for European buses. The Citaro C2 40ft comes with a 300hp option for that reason alone. Postbus of Switzerland is an excellent example of why some operators need more power due to the nature of their areas of operation.

Also, don't forget that not every bus comes with 550bhp in Europe. The Volvo 9900 comes with a 460bhp option, and there are lower outputs as well. 

So, for example, does GO Transit need a 550bhp engine in their MCIs? As much as I'd love to see that happen, it won't, because they simply don't need it. The only areas I can think of in Canada at least, that would require a boost in power would be BC, Vancouver etc. But Translink has trolleys to deal with hills, so that is taken care of. 

[Bus_Medic]

7 hours ago, Chinese Daniel said:

Some European Caoch like Neoplan and VDL can get 550HP engine, 455Hp just a joke.

These are engine ratings. Not dick lengths. You make it sound like all that power is free for the taking. Fuel is expensive. 

18 hours ago, MiWay0310 said:

This is a mix of both Cummins and MCI:

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180108005258/en/Transporting-Next-Generation-Cummins-Announces-Availability-X12-Powered

I believe this upcoming X12 is the highest output we will have seen on an MCI (455bhp), making it the most powerful we've seen in Canada? I feel like I hear someone already calling BS on that though...Apparently its also the lightest engine compared to its competitors, weighing in at 2300 and a bit lbs. Still retains the 12L platform though, although in a smaller size.

 

You could crank up an 8v92 to 500, but that’s not a modern comparison.

[Doppelkupplung]

 

1 hour ago, Bus_Medic said:

You could crank up an 8v92 to 500, but that’s not a modern comparison.

Are engines like say, the ISL9, with multiple multiple applications, electronically limited to have a reduced rating like 280hp for 40ftrs and 330hp for 60ftrs, onwards for coaches? I assume coaches have some sort of variation in components...

[smallspy]

13 minutes ago, MiWay0310 said:

 

Are engines like say, the ISL9, with multiple multiple applications, electronically limited to have a reduced rating like 280hp for 40ftrs and 330hp for 60ftrs, onwards for coaches? I assume coaches have some sort of variation in components...

Before, it was all in the injectors. The 6V71N is most commonly operated at about 170hp, but other injectors existed that allowed an increase in horsepower to about 220. The trade-off was a huge increase in fuel usage.

 

Now, there are software changes that can be made to increase or decrease the horsepower ratings. (Although there are other physical changes that may be required to make those changes more stable/reliable.) Just because the "normal" setting for an ISL is 280hp doesn't mean that the property needs to run it at that. They may lower it to reduce fuel use, or increase it if they find that it will help.

 

Dan

[Doppelkupplung]

46 minutes ago, smallspy said:

Now, there are software changes that can be made to increase or decrease the horsepower ratings. (Although there are other physical changes that may be required to make those changes more stable/reliable.) Just because the "normal" setting for an ISL is 280hp doesn't mean that the property needs to run it at that. They may lower it to reduce fuel use, or increase it if they find that it will help.

So I guess I was right to an extent. And this software fiddling can be done by the agency that operates it I assume?