Transit in Hong Kong

[Orion V]

Several questions:

1) KMB ONLY Questions:

Are KMB's Enviro 500 and Super Olympian Wright/B9TL Wright the only 3 types to have the same pink/red type seats in KMB's fleet? I know there one KMB Centroliner APM1 that has this type of seat as well; it being the newest Centroliner in the fleet.

Do the new Golden plus Brown livery only applies to the above 2 models? While all other Super Low Floor buses have full Golden livery.

Do the 2004-05 Super Olympian Alexander buses have the new seat types and new livery? If not, how to disguish them from the older Super Olympians?

There are several Enviro 500 and Wright buses that have super bright LCD signs with smaller fonts, are these retrofits, prototypes or came with a specific order? I know the ones with the "2006" printed liveries don't have this type of destination signs.

2) Citybus and New world:

Do they plan on buying any new buses? I heard their last purchase were in 2002-03 with Dennis Trident and Neoplan Centroliners?

3) General Questions:

Is the Neoplan Centroliner out of production?

There are 6 types of Super Low Floor buses used in HK. Why are there more Tridents/Enviro 500/Super Olympian/B9TLs than MAN 24.310/Centroliners Super Low Floor buses in Hong Kong? Are the former better suited for HK transit?

[leylandvictory2]

Several questions:

1) KMB ONLY Questions:

Are KMB's Enviro 500 and Super Olympian Wright/B9TL Wright the only 3 types to have the same pink/red type seats in KMB's fleet? I know there one KMB Centroliner APM1 that has this type of seat as well; it being the newest Centroliner in the fleet.

Do the new Golden plus Brown livery only applies to the above 2 models? While all other Super Low Floor buses have full Golden livery.

Do the 2004-05 Super Olympian Alexander buses have the new seat types and new livery? If not, how to disguish them from the older Super Olympians?

There are several Enviro 500 and Wright buses that have super bright LCD signs with smaller fonts, are these retrofits, prototypes or came with a specific order? I know the ones with the "2006" printed liveries don't have this type of destination signs.

2) Citybus and New world:

Do they plan on buying any new buses? I heard their last purchase were in 2002-03 with Dennis Trident and Neoplan Centroliners?

3) General Questions:

Is the Neoplan Centroliner out of production?

There are 6 types of Super Low Floor buses used in HK. Why are there more Tridents/Enviro 500/Super Olympian/B9TLs than MAN 24.310/Centroliners Super Low Floor buses in Hong Kong? Are the former better suited for HK transit?

All super low double decker KMB buses have champlain livery (not gold livery. A fan corrected me too!)All High floor air condiitiong buses have white livery.

Yes, I believe Neopolean Centroliner is still in production. I can't find the photo right now.

I believe Air conditioning Dennis Dragon has pinkish seats.

KMB has Volvo Olympian and Super Olypmpian. The older super olympian batch does not have electric destination signs. As to how many Super Olympian does not have electric sign, I am not sure

The latest batch from what I heard is Dennis Trident for NWFB. Keep in Mind NWFB merge with City Buses. City buses have surplus Dennis Tridents. iirc Due to stupid Transportation Regulation , they can only operate a certain amount of Dennis buses per day!

I was told Centroliner suck. NWFB wanted to scrap them but their body is tough.

[kevlo86]

The latest batch from what I heard is Dennis Trident for NWFB. Keep in Mind NWFB merge with City Buses. City buses have surplus Dennis Tridents. iirc Due to stupid Transportation Regulation , they can only operate a certain amount of Dennis buses per day!

I doubt that the limit is on the number of Dennis buses per day.

What is more likely the case is that they can only operate a certain number of airport express runs per day, which all use Dennis Tridents of course. I doubt the Transportation Board in HK would care what kind of buses Citybus operates. Heck, if Citybus really wanted to, they could operate their Volvo Olympians on the airport services and put all the tridents on the city services.

[Orion V]

This is the final/newest Centroliner in KMB fleet bought in 2003. It has the new red/pink seats as well as the brown bottom colours. I think only this is the only Centroliner bus with the new features.

Where are the fleet numbers on KMB buses? I can't seem to find it anywhere whether outside or inside.

Is this a site where I can find fleet rosters of KMB/Citybus/NWFB just like the GTA fleet rosters?

[kevlo86]

Fleet numbers are located usually in one place and one place only. That would be on the front of the bus, usually fairly small. In the Centroliner above, the fleet number is located below the letter "U" (Garage prefix).

Buses are more commonly identified by their license plates by local bus fans. Ie. more commonly you would hear the above bus reffered to LE4612

[D40LF]

Buses are more commonly identified by their license plates by local bus fans. Ie. more commonly you would hear the above bus reffered to LE4612

Which is the complete opposite to how they were identified when I lived in Hong Kong in the early 1980's.

The fleet numbers were easy to spot back then.

[Orion V]

Which is the complete opposite to how they were identified when I lived in Hong Kong in the early 1980's.

The fleet numbers were easy to spot back then.

Exactly, that's why I was confused. I see NWFB and Citybus buses have clear fleet numbers written on them in several places but just can't see KMB fleet numbers. Why would KMB do this?

[D40LF]

Exactly, that's why I was confused. I see NWFB and Citybus buses have clear fleet numbers written on them in several places but just can't see KMB fleet numbers. Why would KMB do this?

I once heard that KMB placed small numbers on the buses to stop the public from seeing what has become to be considered an internal number. In other words only KMB employees need to know the fleet number.

If someone could confirm this it would be appreciated.

[kevlo86]

I once heard that KMB placed small numbers on the buses to stop the public from seeing what has become to be considered an internal number. In other words only KMB employees need to know the fleet number.

If someone could confirm this it would be appreciated.

That explanation makes sense, but the number is quite public in reality.

But having the one small fleet number doesn't prevent the number from being something that is very public. There are websites out there that match the license plate with the fleet number. Also if the average passenger wanted to see the fleet number, they could easily have a look as you can still read it if you stand close to it.

Also if it is of internal use, then to me it would make more sense to have the number clearly marked on all 4 sides of the bus, instead of the number being unclearly marked on the front only.

[Orion V]

New questions I thought of:

Why does KMB still use the old non A/C buses (painted in yellow/red) while Citybus/NWFB are completely A/C? KMB has the newest buses yet also has the oldest.

NWFB only has 1 non A/C bus DM6 right? An open top bus use on 15C.

What are Citybus and NWFB's newest bus currently?

Why doesn't Citybus and NWFB have any MAN 24.310, Wright Explorer and Enviro 500?

[kevlo86]

KMB still runs non-A/C buses. Most of which are built in the first half of the 1990's. Remember KMB ordered hundreds of Dennis Dragons and Leyland/Volvo Olympians from in the first half of the 1990's. So they haven't life expired yet, so they have yet to be replaced as most of those are left are no older then 16 or 17 years of age, some are only 11 years old. Probably in about 5 years, all of the remaining non-AC buses in the KMB fleet will be taken off the road as they hit retirement age.

I am not entirely sure about the newest buses for Citybus and NWFB, but just quickly looking, 1999 and 2002 respectively. All Dennis Tridents

The reason why Citybus and NWFB do not have newer buses is because they have limited options for service expansion and thus do not require fleet expansion. Citybus and NWFB operate primarily on services within or to/from Hong Kong Island. There is limited space left for new development in this area of Greater Hong Kong. On the other hand, KMB which operates in Kowloon and New Territories district has a bit more options for expansion as there is somewhat more options for new housing and such.

Also NWFB has the youngest fleet of the big 3 operators. Except for the DA, LA and VA series, all their buses are 1998 and newer. With the DA/LA/VA series being built in the early/mid 90's, these were buses from defunct China Motor Bus that NWFB decided to keep, rather then replace, like they did all of the non-AC CMB fleet which for the most part was very outdated.

[Orion V]

KMB still runs non-A/C buses. Most of which are built in the first half of the 1990's. Remember KMB ordered hundreds of Dennis Dragons and Leyland/Volvo Olympians from in the first half of the 1990's. So they haven't life expired yet, so they have yet to be replaced as most of those are left are no older then 16 or 17 years of age, some are only 11 years old. Probably in about 5 years, all of the remaining non-AC buses in the KMB fleet will be taken off the road as they hit retirement age.

I am not entirely sure about the newest buses for Citybus and NWFB, but just quickly looking, 1999 and 2002 respectively. All Dennis Tridents

The reason why Citybus and NWFB do not have newer buses is because they have limited options for service expansion and thus do not require fleet expansion. Citybus and NWFB operate primarily on services within or to/from Hong Kong Island. There is limited space left for new development in this area of Greater Hong Kong. On the other hand, KMB which operates in Kowloon and New Territories district has a bit more options for expansion as there is somewhat more options for new housing and such.

Also NWFB has the youngest fleet of the big 3 operators. Except for the DA, LA and VA series, all their buses are 1998 and newer. With the DA/LA/VA series being built in the early/mid 90's, these were buses from defunct China Motor Bus that NWFB decided to keep, rather then replace, like they did all of the non-AC CMB fleet which for the most part was very outdated.

I bought 2 books in Hong Kong (right now) titled "Evolution of HK Buses" KMB Kowloon and HK Island and both talked about the last non A/C buses they purchased. KMB's last were the Volvo Olympian's in 1995 while CMB's last (sold to NWFB) in 1993 also Volvo Olympian. So using these 2 years as reference, it seems the KMB non A/C buses are lasting longer than NWFB's non A/C buses since they retired the last one in 2002 while in 2006, KMB is still using them. In fact, I see more than just the Olympians running on the streets, there are other non A/C buses on the streets, probably Dennis Dragons or Dominators.

I can't wait till the last 2 books of this series comes out later this year; 3rd titled Citybus/NWFB and KMB Golden buses while the 4th is HK Rail.

[kevlo86]

I bought 2 books in Hong Kong (right now) titled "Evolution of HK Buses" KMB Kowloon and HK Island and both talked about the last non A/C buses they purchased. KMB's last were the Volvo Olympian's in 1995 while CMB's last (sold to NWFB) in 1993 also Volvo Olympian. So using these 2 years as reference, it seems the KMB non A/C buses are lasting longer than NWFB's non A/C buses since they retired the last one in 2002 while in 2006, KMB is still using them. In fact, I see more than just the Olympians running on the streets, there are other non A/C buses on the streets, probably Dennis Dragons or Dominators.

I can't wait till the last 2 books of this series comes out later this year; 3rd titled Citybus/NWFB and KMB Golden buses while the 4th is HK Rail.

That is correct, the 30 Volvo Olympians built for KMB in 1995 were the last non-AC buses and CMB had ones that were only a few years younger (later becoming part of the NWFB fleet).

Despite that, it is a matter of numbers and the different operating circumstances of KMB and NWFB

KMB has way more non-AC buses then CMB (later NWFB) ever did. KMB currently operates about 4300 buses. NWFB around 700-800. So NWFB was able to quickly replace their non-AC units quickly. While KMB had thousands of non-AC buses to replace and they are still working on this replacement, waiting for vehicles to life expire. They have already come a long way if you look at the masses of non-AC buses retired. Non-AC buses go much further back then the MCW Metrobus, Dennis Dragons and Leyland/Volvo Olympian buses currently operated by KMB. There were Mercedes-Benz, Damiliar/Leyland Fleetlines, Dennis Jubilients etc etc.

Additionally when NWFB took over CMB, the point was that NWFB would provide far better service then CMB did in the mid 90's. Part of this was making the fleet practically 100% A/C. Also, all the ex-CMB A/C buses that NWFB has kept past 2002 have all received interior upgrades to make them more modern. So in part NWFB was more committed to improving services. Though again, KMB has bought low floor A/C buses like crazy for nearly 10 years now, replacing non-A/C buses and expanding the fleet. So it is not to say KMB has not done enough to improve its fleet. By all means they have done lots, just look at the number of buses taken off the roster in the past 10 years.

Also NWFB has to compete with Citybus in certain areas. Citybus having long pledged to have a 100% A/C fleet and being the first to do this set the standard. So NWFB had little choice but to follow suit since both companies operate in the same area. KMB on the other hand runs without competition on its non-cross harbor routes, if you go to Hong Kong and look at where non-AC buses are being used, they are almost all being dumped onto short little feeder routes that they operate solely and the ride is pretty short.

Currently KMB operates Dennis Dragons, Leyland Olympians, Volvo Olympians and MCW Metrobus as their non-AC fleet, 3 or 4 years ago their fleet was 82% air conditioned. I imagine now it is up to 85 or 90 %

[Orion V]

Thanks for the lengthy reply Kev!

2 Questions:

Why do HK systems buy buses with 2 bodies? Is it to get them delivered faster since 2 companies will be working on building the bodies of the same model? Eg. Trident Duple Metsec and Trident Alexander.

I find it hard to differential between HK buses mainly due to the fact that each model usually has more than 1 body. Super Olympian comes in 4 bodies while Trident comes in 2. A Super Olympian Duple Metsec looks exactly like Trident Duple Metsec BUT the former looks way different than a Super Olympian Alexander. Now with the B9TL out, it's even more harder as there are 3 models that look different and alike at the same time.

I like the Enviro 500, Centroliner and MAN 24.310 (except the Volgen body) as they look unique by themselves mainly since they only have 1 body.

How do you differential?

[leylandvictory2]

Thanks for the lengthy reply Kev!

2 Questions:

Why do HK systems buy buses with 2 bodies? Is it to get them delivered faster since 2 companies will be working on building the bodies of the same model? Eg. Trident Duple Metsec and Trident Alexander.

I find it hard to differential between HK buses mainly due to the fact that each model usually has more than 1 body. Super Olympian comes in 4 bodies while Trident comes in 2. A Super Olympian Duple Metsec looks exactly like Trident Duple Metsec BUT the former looks way different than a Super Olympian Alexander. Now with the B9TL out, it's even more harder as there are 3 models that look different and alike at the same time.

I like the Enviro 500, Centroliner and MAN 24.310 (except the Volgen body) as they look unique by themselves mainly since they only have 1 body.

How do you differential?

I don't think there is any super olympians buses in the world with duple metsec bodies. kmb does not have Super Olympian with duple Metsec body. It has Super Olympian with Alexander body.

[kevlo86]

I think you meant it is difficult to tell a Alexander ALX500 bodied Dennis Trident and Volvo Super Olympians. But you can tell the difference by simply looking at the rear, as the ALX500 body on the Super Olympian (B10TL) is a modified rear end with the rectangle lights. Also the B10TL has a radiator grille on the driver side, while Dennis Trident does not. So thats another way you can tell.

B9TL's the main thing with them is that they do not have the radiator grille on the driver side of the bus. So a Wright bodied B10TL (Super Olympian) and B9TL is differentiated by looking to see if its got a radiator grille behind the front wheel on the driver side. Same idea with a Volgren bodied B9TL and B10TL.

I'm not too sure why KMB likes to order the same buses with different bodies.

I'm not sure if you have seen this but,

http://www.gakei.com/kg4/kg4.htm

If you study the photos carefully, you will notice minor differences in the bodies that are used on multiple buses. Might help in differentiating between different models with the same body.

Glad to help out anytime!

[Orion V]

I don't think there is any super olympians buses in the world with duple metsec bodies. kmb does not have Super Olympian with duple Metsec body. It has Super Olympian with Alexander body.

Super Olympians in KMB have 4 bodies: Alexander, Duple Metsec, Volgen and Wright. Check the site that Kevlo86 posted and see for yourself.

I just wish that site lists the fleet roster of NWFB and Citybus just like the KMB Golden Bus Page on that site.

BTW, there's 2 new books in the "Evolution of HK Buses" that are coming out in 2007. They are:

Evolution of HK Buses: CTB, NWFB & Newer Generation Buses

Overview of HK Public Transport

Both by 80M Bus Shop. I'm going to get those! IMO this series is pretty good and it has English!

[kevlo86]

I'm pretty sure that none of the Volvo Super Olympians have Duple Metsec DM500 bodies. Walter Alexander, Wright, Volgren and Enviro 500 are the 4 bodies that have appeared on Volvo B9TL/B10TL (Super Olympians) in HK.

Duple Metsec DM500 is for the Dennis Trident. Perhaps you are mistaking the Enviro 500 body for the Duple Metsec body. They are two different bodies, not sure you can even get the Duple Metsec DM500 anymore.

Here is a link as to what a Duple Metsec 500 body looks like, these are only found on Dennis Tridents, atleast in HK.

http://www.gakei.com/kg4/imaget/0010t1.jpg

[BCT-3122-D800-10240]

Here is a link as to what a Duple Metsec 500 body looks like, these are only found on Dennis Tridents, atleast in HK.

http://www.gakei.com/kg4/imaget/0010t1.jpg

That's the same body as found on the BC Transit Decker #'s 9001-9036. Right?

[A. Wong]

Right! With minor modifications.

[Ailsa-Volvo B55]

Like leylandvictory2 and kevlo86 said before, there is no Volvo B10TL Super Olympian with a DM body in HK. Look at the bus' offiside, if there is a radiator between the first and second axle, it's a B10TL, otherwise, it's either a B9TL or the Trident and that depends on the size of the radiator, the B9TL's radiator is much larger than the Trident's.

Buses in UK are different than buses in North America in that they have separate chasis and body manufacturers. Metal Sections (later DupleMetSec after the merger with Duple) once had the largest market share in HK bus bodies around 30+ years ago. KMB's Daimler CVGs, Fleetlines, Leyland Albions, CMB's Guy Arabs Mk VI, V, Daimler Fleetlines all had MetSec bodies. It was when CMB bought the Ailsa-Volvo B55 that the Walter Alexander bodies were introduced and begins to take the market share from MetSec, mainly due to their stylish appearance over the MetSec's squarish bodies.

It soon evolved into a competition between Alexander, DupleMetSec, and other body manufacturers to have the larger market share in HK bus bodies, keep in mind HK is quite a large market for both chasis and body builders. That's why you see several different bodies on the same bus chasis.

In the past Alexander bodies appeared more on Leyland/Volvo products (Victory Mk2, Olympian), while DupleMetSec appeared more on Dennis products (Jubilant, Dragon/Condor), the exception being the MCW Metrobus with its Apollo body.

[Orion V]

Thanks for the explanation guys!

It is also very difficult to tell the difference between B9TL Alexander and Trident Alexander as both have a grille on the driver's side. The B10TL Alexander is the only one that doesn't have the grille.

The MAN 24.310 Volgen and the B10TL Volgen are also hard to distinguish.

Anyone know if the Centroliner is discontinued since Neoplan USA is gone or since Neoplan is worldwide, they might have another production somewhere in Europe?

Why doesn't Hong Kong systems order more MAN 24.310?

[leylandvictory2]

Thanks for the explanation guys!

It is also very difficult to tell the difference between B9TL Alexander and Trident Alexander as both have a grille on the driver's side. The B10TL Alexander is the only one that doesn't have the grille.

The MAN 24.310 Volgen and the B10TL Volgen are also hard to distinguish.

Anyone know if the Centroliner is discontinued since Neoplan USA is gone or since Neoplan is worldwide, they might have another production somewhere in Europe?

Why doesn't Hong Kong systems order more MAN 24.310?

not sure if this is relevant or not. i found a picture of Neoman Centroliner! Not sure if Neoman purchase the right to product more centroliner.

http://www.orientalmodelbuses.co.uk/news_060816.jpg

Got this photo from http://www.orientalmodelbuses.co.uk/news_0608.htm. I don't know how to link a photo so you have to click on the link I supplied above.

[kevlo86]

Thanks for the explanation guys!

It is also very difficult to tell the difference between B9TL Alexander and Trident Alexander as both have a grille on the driver's side. The B10TL Alexander is the only one that doesn't have the grille.

The MAN 24.310 Volgen and the B10TL Volgen are also hard to distinguish.

Anyone know if the Centroliner is discontinued since Neoplan USA is gone or since Neoplan is worldwide, they might have another production somewhere in Europe?

Why doesn't Hong Kong systems order more MAN 24.310?

A B9TL Alexander I assume you mean B9TL with the Enviro 500 body

A Trident Alexander is a Trident with an ALX 500 body from Alexander.

A "Trident" Enviro 500 is a Transbus Enviro 500.

B9TL's and Trident's do not have the radiator grille behind the front wheel as you have indicated. This is regardless of what body is on these buses.

B10TL's are the only ones to have the radiator grille behind the front wheel, again regardless of what body is being used.

The Volgren bodied buses can be distinguished by looking at the body lines at the back of the bus. Study some photos and you will see what I mean. Though at first glance they do look similar. Though the MAN Volgren buses have the MAN badge on the front that is quite large. So thats an easy way of telling.

The MAN 24.310 along with the Neoplan Centroliner never did make much of a mark in Hong Kong. The Centroliner sold more units, but still relatively few compared to the number of Dennis/Transbus and Volvo products on the streets. I have heard that KMB was not overly impressed with either the Neoplan Centroliner nor the MAN 24.310 buses that they got.

[Orion V]

Ok, Kevin helped me differentiate between the various confusing models and bodies but I have 1 more question that baffles me and him.

How do you differentiate between the Volvo B9TL with Enviro body (AVBE Class) AND the Transbus Enviro 500 (ATE Class)?