Long Beach Transit (California)

[C40LFRZeke]

Zeke, why do you think LBT is best off building charging infrastructure and buying Proterras? Because they have more experience providing buses in this country? Because the charging infrastructure and fast charging provides for a bus that is more flexible and versatile?

I think those are important advantages, yes. I liked the larger size of the BYD and I wanted to see how well it performed in real-world use. However, going BYD is creating more drama than it is worth.

Given how we've already seen how well the Proterra has been doing right here in So Cal, LBT might as well go the Proterra route. If the feds are paying for it anyway, the cost of the infrastructure should not be a problem. Not mention that it would be a perfect fit, since the passport is a relatively short circulator.

[Shakey077]

I think those are important advantages, yes. I liked the larger size of the BYD and I wanted to see how well it performed in real-world use. However, going BYD is creating more drama than it is worth. Given how we've already seen how well the Proterra has been doing right here in So Cal, LBT might as well go the Proterra route. If the feds are paying for it anyway, the cost of the infrastructure should not be a problem. Not mention that it would be a perfect fit, since the passport is a relatively short circulator.

Biggest issue LBT had with Proterra and the part of the reason it did not win the original contract was the limited distance of the buses. If they have to detour the Passport (which happens quite a bit) then that would render them unusable as the route as it is now it at the limit of the Proterra bus. They would only do the charging infrastructure at the Queen Mary layover stop. So LBT would need to always have a full 1 for 1 spare non electric bus for the Passport service. This came straight from them at our tour last March. Now this new bid who knows. I really think BYD will go all out as they have laid out a lot of money already building the engineering bus LBT required plus assemblies for LBT bus 1 and shipped that to Lancaster and started assembly. The assemblies for LBT 2-10 are are either built or were in process already as well. Of course New flyer could bid this time around.

[MAX BRT]

Thanks Shakey. I did not know they considered the route to be at the limit of the Proterra bus (the limit per Proterra is 35 miles I believe) Having to have a spare all the time sure would be wasteful. I don't trust BYD but I'll be surprised if BYD doesn't win it again.

[MST-Scheduler]

Having knowledge of this prior to leaving LBT.....the bid was put out with the idea of seeing what technology available at the time. The RFP did not ask for any specific technology, but wanted to know what each vendor could provide. Remember that LBT does have history with electric vehicles (ie: Dash - although I don't have pics of that handy) that were used on the East/West Loop in the mid/late 70's. On a sidenote, LBT also had plans for trolley coaches along 3 corridors, but funding fell through. If you look at Anaheim Street, Long Beach Blvd and Atlantic, you will notice there are no power lines....as they were put underground during the first phase of that project.

At the Intl Bus Roadeo last year in Indianapolis, Proterra was using a coach to shuttle people, and it was being charged after every round-trip. This was visible to all the people there, and I didn't think it was a good marketing strategy. Foothill's use of the Proterra requires them to build time into the schedules for recharging on their trips as well.

I believe the bidding process will be much different this time around, as most of the upper management team in the original decision is no longer there. But I also believe BYD will prevail again on this. The biggest problem for Proterra now is that they don't make a 40' vehicle, so if that is spec'd now, it would make things difficult for them, as well, they might not be able to make the delivery schedule. I was one of those people that adamantly opposed replacing the 30 foot passports with 40 foot coaches. Maybe after a year of using 40 foot coaches on Passport, they might see things a bit differently. If the previous upper management group was still there, I would say the electrics would not be put on Passport, but used on lines in 'sensitive areas', such as Anaheim Rd on the 171, (or Marina Drive in Seal Beach). That is another story in itself.

[Shakey077]

LBT resuming service to Seal Beach in June.

http://lbpost.com/place/transit/2000003537-long-beach-transit-resuming-131-171-service-to-seal-beach-june-1?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co#.U0SOkKhdV8G

Having knowledge of this prior to leaving LBT.....the bid was put out with the idea of seeing what technology available at the time. The RFP did not ask for any specific technology, but wanted to know what each vendor could provide. Remember that LBT does have history with electric vehicles (ie: Dash - although I don't have pics of that handy) that were used on the East/West Loop in the mid/late 70's. On a sidenote, LBT also had plans for trolley coaches along 3 corridors, but funding fell through. If you look at Anaheim Street, Long Beach Blvd and Atlantic, you will notice there are no power lines....as they were put underground during the first phase of that project.

At the Intl Bus Roadeo last year in Indianapolis, Proterra was using a coach to shuttle people, and it was being charged after every round-trip. This was visible to all the people there, and I didn't think it was a good marketing strategy. Foothill's use of the Proterra requires them to build time into the schedules for recharging on their trips as well.

I believe the bidding process will be much different this time around, as most of the upper management team in the original decision is no longer there. But I also believe BYD will prevail again on this. The biggest problem for Proterra now is that they don't make a 40' vehicle, so if that is spec'd now, it would make things difficult for them, as well, they might not be able to make the delivery schedule. I was one of those people that adamantly opposed replacing the 30 foot passports with 40 foot coaches. Maybe after a year of using 40 foot coaches on Passport, they might see things a bit differently. If the previous upper management group was still there, I would say the electrics would not be put on Passport, but used on lines in 'sensitive areas', such as Anaheim Rd on the 171, (or Marina Drive in Seal Beach). That is another story in itself.

I think the 151 would make a good route for all electric and maybe the 181/182 as well.

[bzcat]

BYD's contract is being canceled because their amateur legal people didn't submit the right paperwork to the Feds, thus making the current contract ineligible for Federal funding. The technical merits and requirements still favors BYD so if the 2nd round is BYD vs. Proterra again, we know what the result will be.

The only question is whether someone else will bid... and I guess if BYD has now hired competent in-house legal staff that knows the rules and the paperwork required on Federal procurement contracts.

[MAX BRT]

I believe the bidding process will be much different this time around, as most of the upper management team in the original decision is no longer there. But I also believe BYD will prevail again on this. The biggest problem for Proterra now is that they don't make a 40' vehicle, so if that is spec'd now, it would make things difficult for them, as well, they might not be able to make the delivery schedule. I was one of those people that adamantly opposed replacing the 30 foot passports with 40 foot coaches. Maybe after a year of using 40 foot coaches on Passport, they might see things a bit differently. If the previous upper management group was still there, I would say the electrics would not be put on Passport, but used on lines in 'sensitive areas', such as Anaheim Rd on the 171, (or Marina Drive in Seal Beach). That is another story in itself.

Proterra has been running an ad about an "all new 40 foot bus". It was on the Metro Mag site. But nothing on the Proterra site yet.

[MST-Scheduler]

Proterra has been running an ad about an "all new 40 foot bus". It was on the Metro Mag site. But nothing on the Proterra site yet.

I'll let you know about this after I return from the bus roadeo on the 8th. One of the Proterra people is on our committee.

[TheAverageJoe]

BYD's contract is being canceled because their amateur legal people didn't submit the right paperwork to the Feds, thus making the current contract ineligible for Federal funding. The technical merits and requirements still favors BYD so if the 2nd round is BYD vs. Proterra again, we know what the result will be.

The only question is whether someone else will bid... and I guess if BYD has now hired competent in-house legal staff that knows the rules and the paperwork required on Federal procurement contracts.

After riding the BYD in Montreal last week, I could see them getting orders from SoCal for them.

[MAX BRT]

I'll let you know about this after I return from the bus roadeo on the 8th. One of the Proterra people is on our committee.

Thanks!

[Shakey077]

LBT joined the TAP network on Monday 4/28.

http://www.lbtransit.com/services/TAP.aspx

2 interesting items from the board meeting on Monday 4/28.

1. Service changes on June 1st will see LBT returning to Seal Beach with lines 131 and 171. Also adding new (again) Line 52 to offer service to the Department of Social Services building on Victoria St in Rancho Dominguez. Basically every 3rd line 51 bus will now be a Line 52 and turn left on Victoria to Santa Fe and then north on Santa Fe to Artesia and rejoin the old route to Artesia Station. Southbound trip will be the opposite, right on Santa Fe, left of Victoria and right on LB Blvd. Service will be every 36 min Mon-Fri only.

2. They are doing a study to come up with a good location for a transit center in the LB Airport / Lakewood Mall area that would be serviced by LBT, OCTA and LA Metro and eventually be a hub for future BRT bus service as well.

http://longbeach.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=A&ID=307886&GUID=3E18ECCE-9C3A-4895-925A-95D4147950B4

[MST-Scheduler]

Proterra has been running an ad about an "all new 40 foot bus". It was on the Metro Mag site. But nothing on the Proterra site yet.

Proterra brought the 40 foot prototype out for the APTA Bus Ops and Paratransit conference last week in Kansas City.

I have posted a couple of pictures here: https://proterra.shutterfly.com/5

The prototype had 'standard' doors, and seating for 40 passengers. This is known as Version 2, which is using Toshiba batteries - claimed to have a lifespan of 6 years. As well, the body is more composite now, making it 2000 lbs lighter.

[MAX BRT]

2000 lbs lighter than version 1? Version 2 is also 40 feet vs. 35 feet on Version 1. That weight difference would be amazing.

[Shakey077]

Proterra brought the 40 foot prototype out for the APTA Bus Ops and Paratransit conference last week in Kansas City.

I have posted a couple of pictures here: https://proterra.shutterfly.com/5

The prototype had 'standard' doors, and seating for 40 passengers. This is known as Version 2, which is using Toshiba batteries - claimed to have a lifespan of 6 years. As well, the body is more composite now, making it 2000 lbs lighter.

Do the still require overhead charging every 30-35 miles or so? I know that was the biggest deal breaker for LBT previously, the limited range and required charging every 30-35 miles.

[MST-Scheduler]

LBT joined the TAP network on Monday 4/28.

http://www.lbtransit.com/services/TAP.aspx

2 interesting items from the board meeting on Monday 4/28.

1. Service changes on June 1st will see LBT returning to Seal Beach with lines 131 and 171. Also adding new (again) Line 52 to offer service to the Department of Social Services building on Victoria St in Rancho Dominguez. Basically every 3rd line 51 bus will now be a Line 52 and turn left on Victoria to Santa Fe and then north on Santa Fe to Artesia and rejoin the old route to Artesia Station. Southbound trip will be the opposite, right on Santa Fe, left of Victoria and right on LB Blvd. Service will be every 36 min Mon-Fri only.

2. They are doing a study to come up with a good location for a transit center in the LB Airport / Lakewood Mall area that would be serviced by LBT, OCTA and LA Metro and eventually be a hub for future BRT bus service as well.

http://longbeach.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=A&ID=307886&GUID=3E18ECCE-9C3A-4895-925A-95D4147950B4

I have had that information for a couple of months, as I get drafts of all the upcoming changes....I will be a little more vigilant in getting things posted here when I get them.

The Seal Beach situation on line 131 has changed from draft 1. Was originally slated to run Marina Drive almost straight through, it was changed on draft 2 to operate via north on 1st, then right on PCH to Main. It will be interesting to see if there will be any political fallout on 1st Street.

This Lakewood Mall area situation was something I was looking at before I left LBT. The primary area being looked into is on Lakewood Mall property, SE of JC Penny. Lines 111 & 112 currently operate to South and Downey only because there was no place to park them near Lakewood Mall (which is why some 93 Lkwd Mall only buses layover on Clark N/B). That extension was way more successful than anticipated, picking up close to 300 riders per day. There is a consultant's report in house that has stated that LBT could better serve the Paramount area, which could remove some buses from laying over in Lakewood....but there has been a push by executive staff to extend additional service to Lakewood Green Line (which always seems to fall flat on it's face).

With all that said, LBT is pretty limited in its ability to expand service, as there is room for parking only 5 additional vehicles on existing parking. They could stack park buses for additional capacity if needed.

Do the still require overhead charging every 30-35 miles or so? I know that was the biggest deal breaker for LBT previously, the limited range and required charging every 30-35 miles.

They are claiming 'up to 50 miles' between charges. Primarily due to decreased body weight. BYD also had a demo coach in KC, and it seemed much more solid. LBT Maintenance Director was in KC, but due to the sensitivity of the issue, I didn't ask him about that contract.

[MAX BRT]

They are claiming 'up to 50 miles' between charges. Primarily due to decreased body weight. BYD also had a demo coach in KC, and it seemed much more solid. LBT Maintenance Director was in KC, but due to the sensitivity of the issue, I didn't ask him about that contract.

More solid indeed. The weight difference has to be huge--because of the huge BYD battery.

[Shakey077]

I have had that information for a couple of months, as I get drafts of all the upcoming changes....I will be a little more vigilant in getting things posted here when I get them.

The Seal Beach situation on line 131 has changed from draft 1. Was originally slated to run Marina Drive almost straight through, it was changed on draft 2 to operate via north on 1st, then right on PCH to Main. It will be interesting to see if there will be any political fallout on 1st Street.

This Lakewood Mall area situation was something I was looking at before I left LBT. The primary area being looked into is on Lakewood Mall property, SE of JC Penny. Lines 111 & 112 currently operate to South and Downey only because there was no place to park them near Lakewood Mall (which is why some 93 Lkwd Mall only buses layover on Clark N/B). That extension was way more successful than anticipated, picking up close to 300 riders per day. There is a consultant's report in house that has stated that LBT could better serve the Paramount area, which could remove some buses from laying over in Lakewood....but there has been a push by executive staff to extend additional service to Lakewood Green Line (which always seems to fall flat on it's face).

With all that said, LBT is pretty limited in its ability to expand service, as there is room for parking only 5 additional vehicles on existing parking. They could stack park buses for additional capacity if needed.

I thought that was an interesting routing for the 131. Guess we will see how that is received in SB once service starts.

That area at Lakewood Mall is now full of cars since they built the 24 hour Fitness gym and they are now adding an Applebees to that area where Arby's used to be so not sure that would a good area for the transit center from the Mall's perspective. I think there is an ideal empty lot at the corner of Clark and Del amo that would be a perfect place for the the transit center. That lot is owned by the City of Lakewood though so not sure they would want it used for that purpose but currently it is just a dirt lot used for overflow parking when they have a fair at Mayfair park or the Lakewood annual block party every July.

I saw a report from earlier this year about possible future expansion that may have in the next few years. That discussed extending the 111/112 or the 22 to the Lakewood Greenline station, adding a ZAP service from Transit Mall to LAX and also extending the 93 to Cerritos College. Plus expansion into Carson as well. With the need to install a CNG fueling station at LBT 1 sounds like they are in need of way more room. Wonder if they would think about taking over Metro's Div 12 by the river and use it as a third yard.

[MST-Scheduler]

I thought that was an interesting routing for the 131. Guess we will see how that is received in SB once service starts.

That area at Lakewood Mall is now full of cars since they built the 24 hour Fitness gym and they are now adding an Applebees to that area where Arby's used to be so not sure that would a good area for the transit center from the Mall's perspective. I think there is an ideal empty lot at the corner of Clark and Del amo that would be a perfect place for the the transit center. That lot is owned by the City of Lakewood though so not sure they would want it used for that purpose but currently it is just a dirt lot used for overflow parking when they have a fair at Mayfair park or the Lakewood annual block party every July.

I saw a report from earlier this year about possible future expansion that may have in the next few years. That discussed extending the 111/112 or the 22 to the Lakewood Greenline station, adding a ZAP service from Transit Mall to LAX and also extending the 93 to Cerritos College. Plus expansion into Carson as well. With the need to install a CNG fueling station at LBT 1 sounds like they are in need of way more room. Wonder if they would think about taking over Metro's Div 12 by the river and use it as a third yard.

I have a funny feeling about the Seal Beach routing. But then again, when they moved the 121 layover to e/b Atherton & Ximeno, figured there would be fallout from that - but it never happened.

The dirt lot was discussed at one time, but it's pretty isolated. LBT might balk at the costs of re-routing service to there.

The 22, 93 and 103 have also been discussed as possible Green Line contenders. Cerritos College was discussed for one of the '90's'. The turnaround required for this makes it a bit too cost prohibitive.

Haven't heard about the ZAP to LAX service. Will check on it. Line 104 was routed to the LB airport to close a gap - a project we referred as Blue to Blue. Line 176 also goes there now. But the airport ridership is about 95% workers.

Larry Jackson had discussed possible LB to LA service, so LBT's clientele would have options during a Metro strike.

LBT staff was under the impression that you couldn't build a CNG facility on LBT1 property. Somewhere I have a CNG report done for LBT...I'll see if I can find it.

[MST-Scheduler]

No issues have been reported on the new Seal Beach routings. So that is good news.

Just got a summary of changes slated for the end of August. I'll leave some of the finite details out of this list.

When I get the 'proof' on the Transit Guide, I'll leave a link.....

Passport

Restore Fall/Winter Schedule

Minor running time and schedule adjustments

Lines 51 & 52

Add one earlier and one later trip each direction via County Social Services Ctr.

Adjust line 52 schedule to avoid Powell School during bell times.

Line 81

Modify 330pm trip to coincide with Hill Middle School bell times.

Lines 91-96

Restore Fall/Winter Schedule

Lines 101 & 103

New Sunday Service

Lines 102 & 104

New Saturday Service on Line 104

New Sunday Service on Line 104

Lines 111 & 112

Restore Fall/Winter Schedule

Line 121

AM layover moved to PCH at Clark - buses after 1200 noon will layover on Atherton.

Line 131

Weekday schedule change for additional layover in Seal Beach

Line 151

Evening route extension to Chavez Park - layover will be taken downtown.

Line 171

Increase AM eastbound service to 10 minute frequency between 650am and 810am weekdays.

Increase PM service to 12 minute frequency between 130pm and 440pm weekdays.

Additional westbound trip between 615pm and 700pm weekdays.

Trippers

The existing school trippers will be rolled into the existing printed passenger schedules.

Other

Beginning June 2015, the summer service change will take effect on the 3rd Sunday of the month rather than the first Sunday to better serve LB Unified.

A little history on the 171. When the UPASS program (free ride for CSULB students) was implemented, I was concerned about overloaded buses. The schedule was a 40 minute frequency at the time. Anaheim Road (east of PCH) is a politically sensitive area, and increasing service did not really seem a good option, and the suggestion to use artics was rejected before I could finish the sentence. Fast forward a few years....and we see they are going to 10 minute service along that corridor (or a bus every 5 mins). I am curious how long it will take for the people that live in that area catch on.

[Shakey077]

No issues have been reported on the new Seal Beach routings. So that is good news.

Just got a summary of changes slated for the end of August. I'll leave some of the finite details out of this list.

When I get the 'proof' on the Transit Guide, I'll leave a link.....

Passport

Restore Fall/Winter Schedule

Minor running time and schedule adjustments

Lines 51 & 52

Add one earlier and one later trip each direction via County Social Services Ctr.

Adjust line 52 schedule to avoid Powell School during bell times.

Line 81

Modify 330pm trip to coincide with Hill Middle School bell times.

Lines 91-96

Restore Fall/Winter Schedule

Lines 101 & 103

New Sunday Service

Lines 102 & 104

New Saturday Service on Line 104

New Sunday Service on Line 104

Lines 111 & 112

Restore Fall/Winter Schedule

Line 121

AM layover moved to PCH at Clark - buses after 1200 noon will layover on Atherton.

Line 131

Weekday schedule change for additional layover in Seal Beach

Line 151

Evening route extension to Chavez Park - layover will be taken downtown.

Line 171

Increase AM eastbound service to 10 minute frequency between 650am and 810am weekdays.

Increase PM service to 12 minute frequency between 130pm and 440pm weekdays.

Additional westbound trip between 615pm and 700pm weekdays.

Trippers

The existing school trippers will be rolled into the existing printed passenger schedules.

Other

Beginning June 2015, the summer service change will take effect on the 3rd Sunday of the month rather than the first Sunday to better serve LB Unified.

A little history on the 171. When the UPASS program (free ride for CSULB students) was implemented, I was concerned about overloaded buses. The schedule was a 40 minute frequency at the time. Anaheim Road (east of PCH) is a politically sensitive area, and increasing service did not really seem a good option, and the suggestion to use artics was rejected before I could finish the sentence. Fast forward a few years....and we see they are going to 10 minute service along that corridor (or a bus every 5 mins). I am curious how long it will take for the people that live in that area catch on.

I like the added weekend service on the 104 and Sunday for the 101/103. Would extending the 45/46 to CSULB remove some burden from the 171 I wonder. Of course you couldn't route that through the same neighborhood. I rode the 131 into SB the other day and rode the 171 out. Several people were excited to see LBT back in Seal Beach at the layover spot. Rode the 52 the same day. Most of the passengers got off at Victoria when we turned.

[MST-Scheduler]

Would extending the 45/46 to CSULB remove some burden from the 171 I wonder. Of course you couldn't route that through the same neighborhood.

I doubt it. That was a conversation I was involved in before I left...the problem is - there is no place to turn it around. CSUMB is at the saturation point with the road structure they have. Historically the Anaheim line ran out that way - the 41 and 42 lines ran from Pacific and Wardlow thru downtown and out Anaheim - terminating at Atherton and Studebaker. Ran via Anaheim Rd. I wanted to restore that service, and simply 'dump' 10th Street (81), but my boss would have nothing with that. 81 averages 19 passengers per VSH, and 45/46 average about 75 passengers per VSH. The old 43/44 ran from Pacific & Wardlow to Anaheim & Clark. 45 was added later, then 46 was added when 41-44 were split when 181/182 was added.

[Shakey077]

I doubt it. That was a conversation I was involved in before I left...the problem is - there is no place to turn it around. CSUMB is at the saturation point with the road structure they have. Historically the Anaheim line ran out that way - the 41 and 42 lines ran from Pacific and Wardlow thru downtown and out Anaheim - terminating at Atherton and Studebaker. Ran via Anaheim Rd. I wanted to restore that service, and simply 'dump' 10th Street (81), but my boss would have nothing with that. 81 averages 19 passengers per VSH, and 45/46 average about 75 passengers per VSH. The old 43/44 ran from Pacific & Wardlow to Anaheim & Clark. 45 was added later, then 46 was added when 41-44 were split when 181/182 was added.

Yesh I guess it is a bit crowded in that area with the routes currently serving the area. I have always thought the CSULB / VA area would be a great place for a transit terminal if space and funding could be found. I remember when the 4 and 41, 42, 43, 44 were running. I never got why the 40's were cut back to just PCH and Anaheim. They poor 81, whenever it goes it never seemed to have high ridership. I remember it way back when the 3500's were on it and it ended at 10th and Park and the 82 went down Park to Belmont Shore and ended at Ocean at the end of the Peninsula.

[MST-Scheduler]

Yesh I guess it is a bit crowded in that area with the routes currently serving the area. I have always thought the CSULB / VA area would be a great place for a transit terminal if space and funding could be found. I remember when the 4 and 41, 42, 43, 44 were running. I never got why the 40's were cut back to just PCH and Anaheim. They poor 81, whenever it goes it never seemed to have high ridership. I remember it way back when the 3500's were on it and it ended at 10th and Park and the 82 went down Park to Belmont Shore and ended at Ocean at the end of the Peninsula.

I was still a driver when the 10th St service went to the Peninsula. Also drove the 5 to the Peninsula prior to that.

Thought I'd mention there is a test of a BYD bus in Portland, and just got word it was pulled from service due to charging issues. Haven't looked at the Tri-met section here yet.

[MST-Scheduler]

I have uploaded the draft copy of the August Transit Guide at this link:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23713573/AugustTransitGuide.pdf

[septa105R5/seClip9]

It's official. Long Beach Transit has ordered 13 New Flyer XN60 to replace their existing New Flyer D60LF in the fleet. Source from New Flyer press release

http://www.newflyer.com/index/071414-long-beach-transit