Jump to content
Enviro 500

Hamilton Transit Centre

Recommended Posts

Good if the 410 is finally split. The route is WAY too long as it is now. But instead of terminating it at Brighouse (which is silly as there are many people that ride through, myself included, from the outer ends to points past Brighouse Stn), why not run it from Steveston Village to Six Road and Commerce Parkway (where the C96 goes now). Then eliminate the C96 entirely, replacing it with 405 diversions through Jack Bell Drive, etc. during peak hours. Then have a beefed up C98 (renumbered to something else, say 411) run via Fraserwood, Westminster Highway, etc., then down to its current terminus, and continue along Eight Road and back up to Westminster Highway to Six Road, then to Commerce Parkway where the new 410 would run. Then you'd have this new 411 run from HTC and leave the 410 out of RTC and linked with the other routes in Richmond.

You have effectively tried to plan transit based on your own travel habits. This idea is confusing for a number of reasons, the foremost being the severence of a well-used direct connection between New Westminster and Richmond. It also flies in the face of many transit planning standards, as well as TransLink's own route planning primer guidelines of having strong anchor points for consistent ridership. Brighouse is a strong anchor point that generates ridership... the C96 terminus, by contrast, definitely is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing about the 410 (at least when it comes to the east-west segment) is there seems to be a divide between the two main travel markets: local traffic along the (definitely-busy) Cambie corridor and Queensborough, and inter-regional traffic that gets on at points in Richmond and rides all the way to 22nd St/vice-versa. I don't think it would suit travel patterns to split the 410 as a local/express along the current routing... rather, creating an optimized express route (i.e. "411") with highway coaches, that follows the 301's route from Richmond up to Westminster/91, then takes the 91A into 22nd St Station.

Queensborough residents will have the opportunity to transfer to the faster "411" service to Richmond Centre at Westminster/91 - which I've honestly already found to be pretty effective between the 410/301 when I used those routes to get to Kwantlen's Richmond campus from Burnaby, 2 years ago. There's quite an advantage to getting off at that stop and (if timed right) waiting about 5-10 minutes for the 301 rather than staying on the 410 continuing down Cambie - whether you're heading to KPU or through to Richmond Centre.

Even with a 20-minute starting frequency the "411" would probably be hugely popular as a regional addition (as long as it maintains those sorts of frequencies into evening hours). And not that this area is probably going to be particularly transit-friendly but it could improve transit links to the commercial complex on NE Alderbridge @ Garden City.

This 411 is likely a good idea if the split of the 410 occurs at Brighouse.

You have effectively tried to plan transit based on your own travel habits. This idea is confusing for a number of reasons, the foremost being the severence of a well-used direct connection between New Westminster and Richmond. It also flies in the face of many transit planning standards, as well as TransLink's own route planning primer guidelines of having strong anchor points for consistent ridership. Brighouse is a strong anchor point that generates ridership... the C96 terminus, by contrast, definitely is not.

Where do you get the idea that I planned transit to suit my own travel needs????? I am a regular user of the 410 when I travel to/from Annacis Island for my research work and a split at Commerce Parkway would remove that connection and inconvenience me too. I just thought of it as a good terminus, but as someone else mentioned, it's a bad spot for the night time service due to being in an isolated area. Fair point that I didn't think of, so that's good criticism. Criticism that is just from someone who thinks I spew out information to suit my own needs isn't welcome. As for your thought that Translink plans routes with strong anchor points, then please explain the 405 terminals, the 407 terminus at Knight Street, and well, many of the routes that don't terminate at a Skytrain station. That is the guide, but not the actual thing that happens regularly. It just so happens that their policy is also to keep routes as short and efficient as possible, of which the existing 410 does neither. I know there are many people that ride from Granville Avenue/Railway up Three Road past Brighouse and vice-versa. Sure, the split at Brighouse would just require a transfer, but transfers are what inconvenience people and deter them from taking transit. Explain this split to the MANY Asian seniors that do this ride to/from Cambie Road and places along Granville, Railway, etc.

Another option that would work is to have the 410 go along Three Road to Bridgeport Station and terminate there. But this would likely require the shortening of the 403 at Lansdowne where it used to terminate before the Canada Line opened. This would also require a 403 transfer for those travelling through, but in my opinion, it's not quite as bad since the Canada Line is there for much of the route.

the 410 is approaching 7.5 minute frequencies for most of the day all week long and ridership is only growing. I think the solution might be to split the route into express and local components at this point.

  • local route A: current route from Stevenson village to brighouse. 15 minute service
  • local route B: current route from 22nd street station to Aberdeen via Fraserwood and then north on 3 road to bridgeport. 15-30 minutes depending on demand
  • 410 express: 22nd street station to Boyd/Westminster -> 91 -> no.6/cambie -> Aberdeen -> no.3 -> granville ave -> railway -> garry -> no.1 -> chatham. stops every 800mish with 15-10 minute service

there would probably need to be some extra service hours to implement this but I think it provides good local service and faster regional connections. the only thing that is really a problem is having to run any bus on the catastrophe that is 3 road. If only they kept the bus lanes ;).

maybe we could also get a highway bus station at cambie road and 99 to allow transfers from the 351/601

15 minute service from Steveston to Brighouse isn't nearly enough, even if you put 10-15 minute express service on that portion. The existing 7-8 minute service is not even close to good right now during rush hour. In fact, the western portion of this route has been busier than the eastern portion at times. If you ran express service 8-10 minutes and local service every 8-10, that would work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw the 3 was dieselized today and came up with this thought bubble:

If the 049 returns to VTC and needs artics,  that could possibly mean that we could see non-trolley artics on the 003, 008, and 020 as well. That is in the case of weekend dieselization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HTC is going with concrete walls instead of barbed wire fences. 

Also wonder what 8053 would be doing there instead, I thought its insurance had expired already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8053 could be there to do clearance testing and stuff like that.  They probably put day insurance on it or the have spare plates part of the fleet insurance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HTC is coming along nicely, I can't wait to check out the depot when I transfer there in September.  

As of right now, these are the routes that will be there for sure.  Some could still change, but I doubt it at this point.

100 101 104 106 110 112 116 123 125 128 129 134 136 144 155 410 430.  

Left out 123 by accident.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For reference Sake:

HTC will run 100 101 104 106 110 112 116 125 128 129 134 136 144 155 410 430.  

BTC loses 106 110 112 116 125 129 134 136

BTC keeps 026 027 028 029 044 123 130 135 145 in addition to gaining 209 210 211 214 228 229 230 231 232 236 239 240 241 242 246 247.

As mentioned before, headways are too tight to interline 130/28.

I see 123 work being completely separate - all interlines involving a 123 involve a 106. Could allow for service increases. 

Bold - high frequency routes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I edited my post.  I forgot to put in the 123 which will be run entirely out of HTC.  

It is mostly on its own with a few trips at the start of some runs.  For example, a trip from New West to Brentwood then go on to do a 134 or 136.  

Lots of interesting interlines, it will be neat to drive in Burnaby/New West then head out to Richmond on the 410.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those route seem like good choice for this transit centre. I wonder why CMBC did put the 301, and 340? Those routes seems like good for this transit centre. Will CNG buses be safe under trolley wires? Will CNG be able to fit in Metrotown bus loop with trolley wires under the mall?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Express691 said:

You'll find out if you ride the 160...

Oh, yeah good point. But will CNG bus be able to fit under the mall at Metrotown Station bus loop? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering they had an Enviro 500 double decker go through Metrotown a number of years ago as a demo, without issue as far as I know, I'm sure an XN40 will fit just fine.  I don't think they are that much higher than a Nova HEV or the XDE60's.

Also, part of the metrotown station upgrades is having the buses on Central Blvd under the SkyTrain.  As per that plan, only the 19 106 and 130 will go into the current loop. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Brando737 said:

Considering they had an Enviro 500 double decker go through Metrotown a number of years ago as a demo, without issue as far as I know, I'm sure an XN40 will fit just fine.  I don't think they are that much higher than a Nova HEV or the XDE60's.

Also, part of the metrotown station upgrades is having the buses on Central Blvd under the SkyTrain.  As per that plan, only the 19 106 and 130 will go into the current loop. 

Ok, thank you. Why aren't they moving the 19, 106 and 130 to under the SkyTrain station? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Blue Bus Fan said:

Ok, thank you. Why aren't they moving the 19, 106 and 130 to under the SkyTrain station? 

 

23 minutes ago, Brando737 said:

Also, part of the metrotown station upgrades is having the buses on Central Blvd under the SkyTrain.  As per that plan, only the 19 106 and 130 will go into the current loop. 

I thought it was the 110 going into the loop; not 130?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Screenshot_20160608-220223.png

Yes I stand corrected.  It'll be the 19 110 and 144 into the loop as per this current plan.  I see this plan possibly changing depending on how the HTC interlining at metrotown works out.  It'll take some time to work out the kinks of new interlining.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While the 19 staying in the loop makes sense (would be a large capital cost for new wires), the 110 and 144 makes less sense. Are they planning on keeping the loop at its current size for a mere 3 routes, or does the mall have plans to cut it in half or something?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On December 15, 2015 at 11:39 PM, Brando737 said:

BTC will be getting 12 XDE60's early next year so you'll see them on the 43 44 99 135 145. It seems like all future orders of artics will be XDE, possibly XN if RTC and STC get the upgrade.

Back on topic. RTC will keep the 480 as it's own run and if they transfer artics to VTC for the 49, chances are they will be the XDE's.

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk

Why transfer the XDE60's to VTC and not the D60LF's where the 620 would benfit from the A/C more than the 49

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Why transfer the XDE60's to VTC and not the D60LF's where the 620 would benfit from the A/C more than the 49

We've been down this road too.

When you have a small isolated subfleet of coaches, there is frequently a smaller variation of run types for them to operate.

For example, the artics at STC, on the 96 B-Line, operate almost exclusively all-day runs. There are few/no trippers available. Thus the average usage of the subfleet is much higher than it would be at a garage with a large fleet and a larger pool of runs. The 1998 D60LFs struggled, badly, to keep up with the service demands on the 96. They would have been much better off at BTC where they could rotate through a variety of work, from short trippers to all day pieces, given their age.

 

The fleet going to VTC will see similar demands (though there are some trippers on the 49). Thus, a newer fleet should be assigned, because of the increased usage of the fleet.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, northwesterner said:

We've been down this road too.

When you have a small isolated subfleet of coaches, there is frequently a smaller variation of run types for them to operate.

For example, the artics at STC, on the 96 B-Line, operate almost exclusively all-day runs. There are few/no trippers available. Thus the average usage of the subfleet is much higher than it would be at a garage with a large fleet and a larger pool of runs. The 1998 D60LFs struggled, badly, to keep up with the service demands on the 96. They would have been much better off at BTC where they could rotate through a variety of work, from short trippers to all day pieces, given their age.

 

The fleet going to VTC will see similar demands (though there are some trippers on the 49). Thus, a newer fleet should be assigned, because of the increased usage of the fleet.

I've used the 620 many times and isn't it also all day? As well the buses used on the 620 often have no recovery time as they often leave right away after arriving at Tsawwassen ferrey terminal unlike the 49 which gets recovery at both ends. In that case doesn't is seem like it's better to have the D60LF's on the 49 where there is always recovery which allows the buses to rest and have the XDE60's on the 620 where there is less recovery?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having the XDE60's on the 620 defeats the purpose of the savings that a hybrid bus offers.  They are only used on the 620 currently because they are available for use.  

The 49 is the perfect route for a hybrid bus and is hard on a straight diesel.  There is no stop and go on the 620, just get up to speed and the bus can cruise along which is less wear on a diesel compared to a route that is always packed and makes every stop.  Also, on the 620, you can get a nice breeze through there bus while on the highway to keep the bus cooler.  On the 49, that doesn't happen so the A/C is needed more on the 49.  And I'd say the 620 has more recovery than the majority of 49 runs.

To the point, the newer buses will go where the work is the hardest to prolong the life of the aging fleet and have more reliable service.

Back on topic of HTC, the 301 and 340 could be transferred to HTC at a future date as well as a few other routes.  They are only running HTC at 50% capacity to start to ease the transit center into service and make sure everything works out OK.  Along with the 301 and 340, I could see the 156 sent to HTC as it could be interlined with the 155 & 128 at braid and 101 110 136 at lougheed.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Brando737 said:

Having the XDE60's on the 620 defeats the purpose of the savings that a hybrid bus offers.  They are only used on the 620 currently because they are available for use.  

The 49 is the perfect route for a hybrid bus and is hard on a straight diesel.  There is no stop and go on the 620, just get up to speed and the bus can cruise along which is less wear on a diesel compared to a route that is always packed and makes every stop.  Also, on the 620, you can get a nice breeze through there bus while on the highway to keep the bus cooler.  On the 49, that doesn't happen so the A/C is needed more on the 49.  And I'd say the 620 has more recovery than the majority of 49 runs.

To the point, the newer buses will go where the work is the hardest to prolong the life of the aging fleet and have more reliable service.

Back on topic of HTC, the 301 and 340 could be transferred to HTC at a future date as well as a few other routes.  They are only running HTC at 50% capacity to start to ease the transit center into service and make sure everything works out OK.  Along with the 301 and 340, I could see the 156 sent to HTC as it could be interlined with the 155 & 128 at braid and 101 110 136 at lougheed.

Guess i'm avoiding the 620 once the XDE60's get transferred out. I hate the D60LF's and cant stand them. And according to the schedules the 49 in fact actually get more recovery time than the 620. The 620 hardly has recovery time at the Tsawwassen ferry terminal. Currently I've noticed the XDE60's get b/o'ed on the 49 more than the 620 which already seems like they are more suited on the 620 than the 49. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Stormscape said:

While the 19 staying in the loop makes sense (would be a large capital cost for new wires), the 110 and 144 makes less sense. Are they planning on keeping the loop at its current size for a mere 3 routes, or does the mall have plans to cut it in half or something?

What I had heard was the loop will eventually be gone entirely. Once the station construction is complete, or closer to, the stops and new curbside bays will be used on the south side of Central. Once that happens, the north side would be reconfigured to have bays for the 19, 110, 144. Essentially, the 110/144 will come in west bound and continue to McKay, turn right to Kingsway then left on Nelson. The 19 would continue to Nelson, right Bennett, right Central. The other buses would come in east bound and then continue on to turn right at Imperial and back to their normal routing. Basically all buses would travel in only one direction when servicing the station.

This is all third-hand info, but I don't think it's a big secret that the mall doesn't want the loop there anymore and would rather build out. That loop has been there since before the mall was built and I think they grudgingly over the years had to work around it. This plan would make sense if mall has anything to do with it. If they want it moved so badly, maybe they could chip in for the cost of moving the trolley overhead...

This is obviously a ways away still but for the short-term, I think the plan is that the current loop will be used for the 19 and layover. I still believe the 110/144 will be moved to the north side of Central sooner than later.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Xcelsior Bus Fan said:

Guess i'm avoiding the 620 once the XDE60's get transferred out. I hate the D60LF's and cant stand them. And according to the schedules the 49 in fact actually get more recovery time than the 620. The 620 hardly has recovery time at the Tsawwassen ferry terminal. Currently I've noticed the XDE60's get b/o'ed on the 49 more than the 620 which already seems like they are more suited on the 620 than the 49. 

just for you   

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of curiousity, what busses will run out of HTC/BTC once HTC is open?

Will NVTC Nova's transfer to BTC, and the existing BTC Nova's transfer to HTC, plus get BTC's Articulated fleet? Also, will the HTC/BTC mean a return of some D40LF's to Burnaby?

Any insight would be great!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...