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Greater Dayton RTA


doglover44
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On 10/25/2020 at 4:33 PM, Orion6025 said:

Boston has been looking in favor of scrapping its North Cambridge system in favor of all electrics and the Silver line system in favor of all electrics or extended range hybrids. No where in the discussion for replacement vehicles for those routes have trolleybuses been a factor. Having wires up costs money through regular maintenance. It’s much easier to install chargers at the garage and maybe at one of the termini and calling it a day, especially when such chargers would be useful to all routes instead of just 3..

Philadelphia is in the process of slowly refurbishing their E40LFRs, they’re not replacing those soon.

Right if you want to live in a city covered with trolleybus wires and inevitability of getting detoured off the wired portion, then fine.. I’ll stick to battery electrics....

I know that MBTA has  excluded  trolleybuses from its thinking for both North Cambridge and the Silverline but that doesn't make the policy right. I will post the recent MBTA report on their electric bus pilot in the MBTA thread.

To avoid further thread drift, I'll just make general comments

- In Motion Charging as on Dayton's new trolleybuses reduces the need for overhead wiring

- The overhead wiring maintence cost on a cost per bus mile basis is trivial

- The installations for battery buses are also expensive.

- for intensive bus operations, trolleybuses are cost competitive. A recent study in Berlin showed that. 

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On 1/10/2021 at 11:45 PM, doglover44 said:

All 41 Next Gens are in service and 1402 came back from collision repairs 

Additionally, Route 7 (North Main - Watervliet) has been extended nearly five km north to Englewood OH, operating on the battery, and trolleys now operate on weekends for the first time since 2007. 

We'll see tomorrow (Monday -- US Federal Holiday) if they will operate on holidays.  Pictures and other info available at daytontrolleys.net

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On 10/27/2020 at 2:19 PM, martin607 said:

I know that MBTA has  excluded  trolleybuses from its thinking for both North Cambridge and the Silverline but that doesn't make the policy right. I will post the recent MBTA report on their electric bus pilot in the MBTA thread.

To avoid further thread drift, I'll just make general comments

- In Motion Charging as on Dayton's new trolleybuses reduces the need for overhead wiring

- The overhead wiring maintence cost on a cost per bus mile basis is trivial

- The installations for battery buses are also expensive.

- for intensive bus operations, trolleybuses are cost competitive. A recent study in Berlin showed that. 

Sorry it's an old thread, but I should point out that today's trolleybuses, with AC motors, are quite a bit less tolerant of low power and dropouts than previous generations of trolleybuses.  If you present 450VDC to a Brill, Pullman or a Marmon, the bus will run about 3/4 as good as it does (acceleration and top speed) with 600VDC.  Not so with today's AC inverter on board that wants to turn what it expects to be ~600VDC into AC power for that frequency controlled motor.

The net effect comes with a combination of

- Your bus, with all the batteries, is kinda porky.  On the order of 1000kg empty more than before.
- You have extended the line to go several kilometers off wire
- When that bus gets back to the overhead, it expects to both charge and operate, at a distance in excess of 5.5km from the substation.

One learns, substation capacity to push around buses 1000kg heavier than previous, plus distance from where you desire to start charging and how you have the overhead sectioned off and fed become very important variables to consider, and didn't have to be paid attention to as much back in the day.




 

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On 1/18/2021 at 4:53 AM, etbetb said:

Sorry it's an old thread, but I should point out that today's trolleybuses, with AC motors, are quite a bit less tolerant of low power and dropouts than previous generations of trolleybuses.  If you present 450VDC to a Brill, Pullman or a Marmon, the bus will run about 3/4 as good as it does (acceleration and top speed) with 600VDC.  Not so with today's AC inverter on board that wants to turn what it expects to be ~600VDC into AC power for that frequency controlled motor.

The net effect comes with a combination of

- Your bus, with all the batteries, is kinda porky.  On the order of 1000kg empty more than before.
- You have extended the line to go several kilometers off wire
- When that bus gets back to the overhead, it expects to both charge and operate, at a distance in excess of 5.5km from the substation.

One learns, substation capacity to push around buses 1000kg heavier than previous, plus distance from where you desire to start charging and how you have the overhead sectioned off and fed become very important variables to consider, and didn't have to be paid attention to as much back in the day.




 

I was hesitating whether to reply but @captaintrolley has posted the excellent article from Mass Transit Magazine.

The management at Dayton seem to be pretty pleased with the greater flexibility that batteries give and the scope for extensions without wires. Generally, the trick is to find a "sweet spot" when specifying battery size: batteries big enough to support the likely length of future extensions; but no bigger then they need to be. The NexGen trolleybuses have a battery capacity of 67 kWh. The spec sheet doesn't quote the battery weight separately, but I suspect the weight is closer to 500kg.

I take your point for example about the north end of the 7 which is apparently about 3 miles away from the substation. This wouldn't be great, even for a traditional trolleybus system.  I understand there is a budget to add some substations and it sounds like this location would be a top priority

Like you, I had always believed that modern trolleybuses are less robust than the old trolleybuses with DC motors and resistor controls. That's probably still true but modern trolleybuses with IGBT control *can* cope with some voltage drop - I checked with an electric traction expert who tells me that "the voltage fluctuation in DC lines is standardized by the IEC [International Electrotechnical Commission] and whoever designs equipment for tram or trolleybus lines needs to ensure that it will operate within certain margins. For 750 V DC, the lower limit is 520 V, for 600 V DC it is 420 V." In addition, some IMC trolleybuses are able to blend power from the battery with that from the overhead line. 

 

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Update 3-14-21

We have had some new 2021 Gillig diesels coming in 2101-2111 are here also diesels 2800s are scrapped and 2010s are slowly fading out and Skodas 9813 9839 9845 9814 and 9844 going to be donated  for fire fighter training We still have 9834  9835  and 9802 in the historical fleet

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Hot off the press from the Gem City!

I visit Dayton semi-regularly, but usually end up seeing zero trolleys... and leaving town unfulfilled.

Yesterday, Monday May 24, 2021, I was very heartened to see trolleys out in force.

Too bad they're Gilligs. But, nonetheless, it's refreshing to see these vehicles holding in down in Dayton. Ridership is rebounding, too!

Here is 1970... preparing to enter Wright Stop Plaza, while 2068 (off-wire in the background) noses onto Main St:

DAY1970T.thumb.jpg.cf870787f5610f04aa9a57facb389363.jpg

Then, 1954 passes through Downtown. It's especially gratifying to see "to Meijer" on the destination sign. Meijer stores are enormous big boxes... almost always located in suburban areas. The idea of a trolleybus at a Meijer store is odd to even contemplate. Also, props to Meijer -- they're leaps and bounds more welcoming of transit than most other big box stores:

DAY1954M.thumb.jpg.25a243158f54e080f536954fe933e40f.jpg

Here is 2057 leaving the greater Downtown area, making a postcard turn in front of the art museum. A few blocks later, she'll lower her poles to navigate construction on Salem Ave:

DAY2057A.thumb.jpg.0693c71a6716040eef14439fd608f626.jpg

Finally, 1961 resumes its eastbound trip on Route 1 after dipping into Wright Stop Plaza:

DAY1961E.thumb.JPG.57b3ef0428a288fce3d4e444ccabfbcd.JPG

 

Enjoy! Taking these photos made me happy 😄

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