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TTC 2012 Orion VII Deliveries and News


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I don't know if Orion can continue at this rate. This year we had 80 Diesels and 150 Hybrids (230 total), which will most likely take until Christmas to finish arriving (1101-50).

Next year we're getting 100 Diesels and 220 Hybrids (320 total). Will Orion be able to make all of these for next year?

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I don't know if Orion can continue at this rate. This year we had 80 Diesels and 150 Hybrids (230 total), which will most likely take until Christmas to finish arriving (1101-50).

Next year we're getting 100 Diesels and 220 Hybrids (320 total). Will Orion be able to make all of these for next year?

Well, hopefully Orion has already started building the Frames for the Diesels. As for the HEVs, they probably want start production till the current batch is done.

So I say the Diesels should all arrive in 2007 while the HEVs should all arrive in 2007/2008.

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Well, hopefully Orion has already started building the Frames for the Diesels. As for the HEVs, they probably want start production till the current batch is done.

So I say the Diesels should all arrive in 2007 while the HEVs should all arrive in 2007/2008.

The Diesels are suppose to start being delivered in Janruary IIRC. This years order was suppose to be done already because the 7900s were suppose to come from February to April and the Hybrids from March to August.

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The Diesels are suppose to start being delivered in Janruary IIRC. This years order was suppose to be done already because the 7900s were suppose to come from February to April and the Hybrids from March to August.

Which means chances are good that Orion will be giving the TTC some more free buses. :)

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Which means chances are good that Orion will be giving the TTC some more free buses. :)

Perhaps to finish filling up the 7900s to 7999?

If Orion was to give us more buses and they were numbered in the 79XX series that would mean that Wilson would have the ability to create another accessible route.

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While we're on this topic, I really hope Queensway will get 8000-99 over Malvern (or a different undeserving garage). This way I can ride a VII on the 49 before I graduate from high school! If Queenway were to get the hybrids then I may or may not run out of time. Besides, I don't think giving hybrids to Queensway is the greatest idea anyway, what with the speed of most of Queensway's routes and the fact that Royal York (maybe), Jane, High Park (maybe), and Dundas West will cause height issues.

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While we're on this topic, I really hope Queensway will get 8000-99 over Malvern (or a different undeserving garage). This way I can ride a VII on the 49 before I graduate from high school! If Queenway were to get the hybrids then I may or may not run out of time. Besides, I don't think giving hybrids to Queensway is the greatest idea anyway, what with the speed of most of Queensway's routes and the fact that Royal York (maybe), Jane, High Park (maybe), and Dundas West will cause height issues.

I think that Queensway will most likly get the 8000s to maybe replace D40s or maybe to move the D40s over to Malvern to replace some more Fishbowls.

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I think that Queensway will most likly get the 8000s to maybe replace D40s or maybe to move the D40s over to Malvern to replace some more Fishbowls.

That's what I was thinking, the D40-88/89's are slated to reitre next year, so we'll see what happens. I wouldn't mind seeing them at Malvern before they go though.

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I hope Malvern gets the 8000's, as they're the only division to not have low-floor buses. Haven't you guys noticed that most of the routes in Scarborough are non-accessible? Birchmount is just starting to get any accesible buses at all. It's about time they get new buses.

Compromise: The order gets split between Malvern and Queensway, since they both have retiring fleets (Malvern: remaining D901's and Fishbowls, Queensway: D40 88/89). Although, Malvern has retiring buses as we speak, and Queensway has soon-to-retire ones only, so the first ones go to Malvern.

Maybe (/hopefully) Malvern'll get Hybrid capabilitys set up, and the next order will go to them. Alternately, Arrow can go to 100% Hybrid and the Nova's/Orion VII's will head to Malvern and/or Queensway. (Preferably, Nova's go to Malvern, as they have lift routes there)

[/rant]

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Maybe (/hopefully) Malvern'll get Hybrid capabilitys set up, and the next order will go to them. Alternately, Arrow can go to 100% Hybrid and the Nova's/Orion VII's will head to Malvern and/or Queensway. (Preferably, Nova's go to Malvern, as they have lift routes there)

It wouldn't matter if Malvern has lift routes, the Novas and Orion Vs are completely different buses with complelely different lifts. Arrow can't be all Hybrids unless the get rid of 35 and 191. 35 Jane has a hybrid ban due to clearence issues at Jane Stn and there is no point putting Hybrids on a Highway route (191).

It's most likly that Queensway will get some VIIs first as it has been a trend to send all the older equipment to Malvern (excluding the 7000s from Eglinton).

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It wouldn't matter if Malvern has lift routes, the Novas and Orion Vs are completely different buses with complelely different lifts. Arrow can't be all Hybrids unless the get rid of 35 and 191. 35 Jane has a hybrid ban due to clearence issues at Jane Stn and there is no point putting Hybrids on a Highway route (191).

It's most likly that Queensway will get some VIIs first as it has been a trend to send all the older equipment to Malvern (excluding the 7000s from Eglinton).

HEVs always run on the 191.

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I hope Malvern gets the 8000's, as they're the only division to not have low-floor buses. Haven't you guys noticed that most of the routes in Scarborough are non-accessible? Birchmount is just starting to get any accesible buses at all. It's about time they get new buses.

Compromise: The order gets split between Malvern and Queensway, since they both have retiring fleets (Malvern: remaining D901's and Fishbowls, Queensway: D40 88/89). Although, Malvern has retiring buses as we speak, and Queensway has soon-to-retire ones only, so the first ones go to Malvern.

Maybe (/hopefully) Malvern'll get Hybrid capabilitys set up, and the next order will go to them. Alternately, Arrow can go to 100% Hybrid and the Nova's/Orion VII's will head to Malvern and/or Queensway. (Preferably, Nova's go to Malvern, as they have lift routes there)

[/rant]

Actually I hope not. Not for the fact I don't like the Orion VII but mainly, Malvern doesn't really need more accessible buses. What Malvern has always needed was high capacity buses, if the TTC thought about getting artics again, Malvern will be the one that should get the most. Currently being a all high floor division, I think this is a very good setup considering a lot of Malvern's routes are heavily used. It has to deal with the obvious high riderships of 39, 53 and 85 but also rather large ridership of many other routes like 38, 95, 129, etc. I don't really care what you think of the GMs or D901s but they load and unload faster than an Orion VII spending less time at a red light.

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I know, and my putting HEVs on highway routes (like 191) there is no use for the battery pack since the bus won't travel under 30Km/H which is when the batteries are used.

You should really stop stating fiction as fact, as that is not at all why they shouldn't be on the highways, and not at all how they work.

Regardless of the speed, the power is always going from the alternator to the batteries and then through to the traction motor. In fact at lower speeds, the traction motor requires less power to turn than at higher speeds (hp is a function of torque times speed). Which means that in fact, the system may have to draw additional power from the batteries at higher speeds, rather than remain balanced or even charge the batteries.

The reason why they're not good on highways has nothing to do with the fact that they're hybrids, but rather because of the gearing they've used. Even though diesel-electrical transmission systems are far more efficient than diesel-mechanical ones, there is a point at which the onboard diesel power source simply can't keep up with the power required by the traction motor to continue accelerating. On a hybrid this isn't as big a deal, although the battery pack is a very finite power source and so can't be expected to continue discharging for hours. Now, I don't know enough about the BAE system to know what this point is, but if it was at say, 60km/h, the vehicle would have fantastic acceleration but wouldn't be able to go much faster than 60km/h for long periods of time. A simple change in the gearing of the traction motor/transaxle could easily allow for a vehicle that could run at 100km/h or even 120km/h, but with a related drop in acceleration.

Dan

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You should really stop stating fiction as fact, as that is not at all why they shouldn't be on the highways, and not at all how they work.

Regardless of the speed, the power is always going from the alternator to the batteries and then through to the traction motor. In fact at lower speeds, the traction motor requires less power to turn than at higher speeds (hp is a function of torque times speed). Which means that in fact, the system may have to draw additional power from the batteries at higher speeds, rather than remain balanced or even charge the batteries.

The reason why they're not good on highways has nothing to do with the fact that they're hybrids, but rather because of the gearing they've used. Even though diesel-electrical transmission systems are far more efficient than diesel-mechanical ones, there is a point at which the onboard diesel power source simply can't keep up with the power required by the traction motor to continue accelerating. On a hybrid this isn't as big a deal, although the battery pack is a very finite power source and so can't be expected to continue discharging for hours. Now, I don't know enough about the BAE system to know what this point is, but if it was at say, 60km/h, the vehicle would have fantastic acceleration but wouldn't be able to go much faster than 60km/h for long periods of time. A simple change in the gearing of the traction motor/transaxle could easily allow for a vehicle that could run at 100km/h or even 120km/h, but with a related drop in acceleration.

Dan

My bad then, I thought I read somewhere that when there under 30Km/H they use the battery and when there over that they use the diesel and also when they brake they recharge the battery.

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It's worth saying that there are two types of hybrid systems.

A series hybird, which is used on the Orion VII HEV (the BAE system) works like this:

The diesel engine runs at a controlled speed, and is used mainly to generate electricity to power the traction motors and recharge the batteries. It does not drive the vehicle directly. The traction motors actually drive the vehicle, and do the regenerative braking (source Orion website).

A parallel hybrid, which is used by New Flyer, (the Allison Electric Drive) works like this:

The bus essentially has two drive systems - an electric motor and a diesel engine. They can work together to power the bus, or they can work independently of each other - the complex computer figures it out, but it's normally electric at low speed, and diesel at highway speeds (source New Flyer website). <--- this is the one you're thinking of, wil.

TTC running VII HEV's on 191 is possible, but it isn't the best use of the technology. In an ideal world, parallel would be used on 191, and series everywhere else. Like smallspy said, the battery will likely drain faster than the engine can recharge it if a series hybrid is running at highway speed for an extended periods of time.

It's like buying a laptop to use at home -it's not what it was designed for, but it still works.

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To summarize:

Thus in the case off the TTC, which runs Orion VII hybrids, highway running does not defeat the purpose of the hybrid becasue it is a series system.

Where Wil9402 is coming from is basically what Seattle has shown us. They had their DE60LF's working routes that ran on the highway a lot. Since their DE60LF's are a parallel system, this type of operation does in fact decrease the fuel savings that a parallel hybrid can acheive. Which is basically the conclusion which KC Metro came to.

I have personally only rode on parallel hybrids. The series setup sounds much more interesting to me.

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Perhaps to finish filling up the 7900s to 7999?

Sure, but I don't think it is going to be free because of the bike racks. First There are 29 racks that you can put on 79XX. The remainders of the 92xx are still using the racks which means that if you want to fill up to 80 buses you have to order about 40 to 50 more bike racks.

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Sure, but I don't think it is going to be free because of the bike racks. First There are 29 racks that you can put on 79XX. The remainders of the 92xx are still using the racks which means that if you want to fill up to 80 buses you have to order about 40 to 50 more bike racks.

Wack yourself with a frying pan over the head and make sure your awake, only 16 79XXs don't have Bike Racks (7928 and 7940-7954)! (IIRC) Also what David was suggesting, that if the TTC were to get free VIIs from OriOn, was to number them 7980-7999 to finish the series!

Christiano

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