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1 hour ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

A little late, but I'd think it's because there's no need to distinguish between CNG and LNG anymore

I understood that both XC_ and XN_ either way meant natural gas. I was wondering why they specifically switched from C to N, which was partially answered in this:

1 hour ago, Shakey077 said:

XC40 & XC60 are also Volvo trademarks so they also played into the decision

 

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Just for the record, New Flyer has unveiled the Xcelsior® Charge H2™ bus. Can a designation of "XHE40" and "XHE60" be put into use?
https://www.newflyer.com/buses/xcelsior-chargeh2/
 

Quote
Xcelsior-Charge-TEAL_RGB.png

 

Xcelsior CHARGE H2™ is a battery-electric vehicle that uses compressed hydrogen as an energy source. Fuel cell-electric technology is a unique and innovative way to obtain extended-range operation similar to existing transit vehicles with a fully zero-emission solution.

 

First sixty-foot fuel cell-electric bus to complete Altoona

h2-design.png

New Flyer is the only manufacturer to offer both a forty-foot and sixty-foot fuel cell-electric model that qualifies for federal funding.

New Flyer has created its fuel cell-electric bus by applying modern fuel cell technology to its proven Xcelsior® platform. Our engineers have drawn upon more than 50 years of experience producing electric trolleys, hybrids and over 20 years experience producing fuel cell buses for North American operators.

Technology

Fuel cell buses use a battery-dominant hybrid architecture, where the batteries are large enough to handle all vehicle performance needs while the fuel cell acts like a continuous battery charger to extend the range of the vehicle. Fuel cells do not have a need for replacement or lengthy recharging when its fuel is spent. Additionally, since fuel cells store their fuel in external storage tanks, the maximum operating range of a fuel cell-powered device is limited only by the amount of fuel that can be carried.

H2-technology-1.png

 

How it works

A fuel cell is a device that converts chemical energy into electric energy. A series of chemical reactions splits hydrogen into protons and a current of electrons and then combines them with oxygen, which produces water and heat. The flow of electrons is the electric current. The electric current is used to power the batteries and ultimately power the bus.

Fuel cells produce electricity without combustion, which means that, unlike internal combustion engines, they generate little (if any) noise, vibration, air pollution, or greenhouse gasses and operate at high efficiency over a wide range of loads.

fuelcell.png

Features

 

Built on the proven Xcelsior® platform, the Xcelsior CHARGE H2™ utilizes the same robust electric propulsion system as the Xcelsior CHARGE™ battery-electric bus, featuring industry-proven Siemens and ZF components.

 

  • Available in 35-foot, 40-foot and 60-foot
  • Save 85-175 tons of greenhouse gas per year from tailpipe emissions compared to a diesel bus
  • Travel up to 300 miles on a single refueling with no off-board electric recharging
  • Fast fill time ranging from 6-20 minutes (depending on bus model and operating conditions)
  • Powered by Ballard fuel cells
  • Monitored by a sophisticated battery management system for added protection, longevity and charging efficiency
  • Direct drive – no transmission required, reducing cost, weight, maintenance and propulsion complexity
  • Industry-leading passenger carrying capacity with the strategic weight distribution of our components
  • Regenerative braking while decelerating, which recharges the batteries and reduces energy consumption while also extending range
  • Improved traction and gradeability (with powered center and rear axles, which come standard on the 60-foot Xcelsior CHARGE H2™. An optional high-gradeability motor is available for all bus lengths)

 

 

Extended Range

Xcelsior CHARGE H2™ can travel up to 300 miles on a single refueling and requires no off-board electric recharging. And with battery-dominant hybrid control, there is no reduction in performance or range from beginning to end of life.

Fuel cell-rejected heat is captured through a heat exchanger to supplement the HVAC system, there is little to no reduction in range at cold ambient temperatures.

Xcelsior_Charge_H2_Right-1-600x450-c-cen

 

Fueling

Xcelsior CHARGE H2™ is equipped with either or both TN1 or TN5 fill receptacles or a multi-fill port configuration. Receptacles can also be equipped with IR transmitters or hardwired communication ports to support fast filling at smart fill stations.

With smart refueling it takes approximately 6 – 10 minutes for a 40-foot and 12 – 20 minutes for a 60-foot to refill a fuel cell bus (depending on operating conditions).

Tanks are a lightweight Type 4 HGV2 with 95% usable capacity.

fueling-1-600x450-c-center.png

 

Quiet in Operation

With the absence of a traditional internal combustion engine and its related mechanical and exhaust noises, passengers will love the significantly quieter ride provided by the nearly silent electric traction motor:

  • During the Altoona Interior Noise: 0 to 35 mph Acceleration Testing, the Xcelsior CHARGE H2™ scored the lowest dBA level, making it the quietest bus on the market.
  • The Xcelsior CHARGE H2™ was significantly quieter than specified regulations within the APTA/FTA Standard Bus Procurement Guidelines at all four interior measurement locations within the interior of the vehicle.
xcelsior-noise-600x450-c-center-600x450-

 

Eco Friendly

Hydrogen is clean, abundant and can be reformed into hydrogen from natural gas (methane) or created from renewable sources such as wind or solar energy through electrolysis. And the only output from the tailpipe is water vapor.

Fuel cell-electric buses can save 85-175 tons of greenhouse gas from tailpipe emissions per year compared to a diesel bus.

 

IMG_4587-1-600x450-c-center.jpg

 

Quote

SPECIFICATIONS:

  40’ 60’
Length 41’0” 60’10”
Height 11’ 1” 11’ 1”
Tire Size 305/70R22.5 305/70R22.5
Wheelbase 283.75” 229” front / 293” rear
Seats 40 52
Standees 42 73
Wheelchair Locations 2 2
Curb Weight 32,250 lb 49,900 lb
Approach Angle
Departure Angle
Breakover Angle 12º (front) 9º (back)
Fuel Cell Ballard Ballard
Equivalent Battery Energy 700 kWh 1100 kWh
Hydrogen Storage Volume 37.5 kg 60 kg

 

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6 hours ago, BYD said:

Just for the record, New Flyer has unveiled the Xcelsior® Charge H2™ bus. Can a designation of "XHE40" and "XHE60" be put into use?
https://www.newflyer.com/buses/xcelsior-chargeh2/
 

 

 

Not an entirely new technology for them. How does this differ from the hydrogen buses that were used in Whistler (they were also New Flyer buses)?

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18 minutes ago, anyfong said:

Not an entirely new technology for them. How does this differ from the hydrogen buses that were used in Whistler (they were also New Flyer buses)?

And the previous Ballard Fuel cell units in Chicago and Vancouver?

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1 hour ago, anyfong said:

Not an entirely new technology for them. How does this differ from the hydrogen buses that were used in Whistler (they were also New Flyer buses)?

They have moved it to the Xcelsior platform and added the 60 foot articulated option. The technology has evolved and no doubt costs are falling to some degree.

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http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi2yaXtk6nhAhWhJDQIHTzlBTMQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpicssr.com%2Fphotos%2Flucian400%2Finteresting%2Fpage21%3Fnsid%3D40633006%40N04&psig=AOvVaw36IdPK17wTVldf9qpmMbog&ust=1554010893121591

I just found out some hidden info that no one has known yet while I was finishing the page for OCTA's 2006-2007 model year New Flyer C40LFRs: unit 5611 supposedly has two separate VINs:

Old: '5FYC5FP117C032209', built around September-October 2007

New: '5FYC5FP147C034886', built in late 2008-early2009.

Both of those VINs correspond to 2007 model year C40LFRs with C Gas Plus engines... by clicking on the link above, you will see George Lumbreras' photo of OCTA unit 5611 in the year 2010, with the license plate number '1306063'. 

I entered that license plate number by using that link (https://www.vehiclehistory.com/license-plate-search/) and when I did so, it gave me the VIN with the serial number '7C034886'

The Cummins Westport C Gas Plus engine was discontinued in early 2008 after units 5648, and 7501-7528 from the OCTA were built by New Flyer but somehow in late 2008-early 2009, OCTA unit 5611 was built, with a C Gas Plus engine in it. I have not seen or rode this unit before; it is currently contracted to First Transit at Irvine, CA.

Here is the question that you users have to solve: Why does OCTA unit 5611 have two separate VINs and is this the very last New Flyer bus with a C Gas Plus engine?

 

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On 3/29/2019 at 11:47 PM, OCTD 2039 said:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi2yaXtk6nhAhWhJDQIHTzlBTMQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpicssr.com%2Fphotos%2Flucian400%2Finteresting%2Fpage21%3Fnsid%3D40633006%40N04&psig=AOvVaw36IdPK17wTVldf9qpmMbog&ust=1554010893121591

I just found out some hidden info that no one has known yet while I was finishing the page for OCTA's 2006-2007 model year New Flyer C40LFRs: unit 5611 supposedly has two separate VINs:

Old: '5FYC5FP117C032209', built around September-October 2007

New: '5FYC5FP147C034886', built in late 2008-early2009.

Both of those VINs correspond to 2007 model year C40LFRs with C Gas Plus engines... by clicking on the link above, you will see George Lumbreras' photo of OCTA unit 5611 in the year 2010, with the license plate number '1306063'. 

I entered that license plate number by using that link (https://www.vehiclehistory.com/license-plate-search/) and when I did so, it gave me the VIN with the serial number '7C034886'

The Cummins Westport C Gas Plus engine was discontinued in early 2008 after units 5648, and 7501-7528 from the OCTA were built by New Flyer but somehow in late 2008-early 2009, OCTA unit 5611 was built, with a C Gas Plus engine in it. I have not seen or rode this unit before; it is currently contracted to First Transit at Irvine, CA.

Here is the question that you users have to solve: Why does OCTA unit 5611 have two separate VINs and is this the very last New Flyer bus with a C Gas Plus engine?

 

Could've just been a simple change of license plate numbers.

Thats my two cents

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On 4/1/2019 at 6:19 PM, haydenschool said:

Could've just been a simple change of license plate numbers.

Thats my two cents

 

The bus with the VIN ending in 7C034886 is a replacement bus built as a one-off unit.  Reason unknown.  Yes, it does appear to be the last NFI built with a C Gas Plus engine.

 

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Canadian bus company NFI acquires British double decker bus company for $546M

Company formerly known as New Flyer Industries buys Alexander Dennis in 'transformational' deal

The Canadian Press · Posted: May 28, 2019 9:13 AM ET | Last Updated: May 28
 

Bus manufacturer NFI Group Inc. has acquired Alexander Dennis Ltd., a British maker of buses, for 320 million pounds or roughly $546 million.

Winnipeg-based NFI called the deal is a transformational acquisition.

The company formerly known as New Flyer Industries says the deal complements its product offerings, diversifies its business and creates a platform for international growth.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/new-flyer-alexander-dennis-1.5152410

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Pure transitfan speculation here, but I do wonder how this will affect the product offerings for MCI, NFI, and ADL. Will MCI eventually come up with a RHD coach variant for the UK market? RHD Xcelsiors? Will agencies looking to buy 30' and 40' buses get bids offering both E200 and X_40? In reality I guess there won't be a lot of big changes, but it will be interesting to see what they develop.

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3 hours ago, MVTArider said:

Pure transitfan speculation here, but I do wonder how this will affect the product offerings for MCI, NFI, and ADL. Will MCI eventually come up with a RHD coach variant for the UK market? RHD Xcelsiors? Will agencies looking to buy 30' and 40' buses get bids offering both E200 and X_40? In reality I guess there won't be a lot of big changes, but it will be interesting to see what they develop.

When Den Oudsten Bussen bought Flyer, they started making New Flyer coaches in the Netherlands

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2 hours ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

When Den Oudsten Bussen bought Flyer, they started making New Flyer coaches in the Netherlands

Really?

And here I thought the D40LF were patterned from Den Oudsten Bussen...

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45 minutes ago, Benton Harper said:

Really?

And here I thought the D40LF were patterned from Den Oudsten Bussen...

They were. A low-floor bus was brought over in the mid-'80s, and is still sitting at the Winnipeg factory today.

Fun fact: the NovaBUS LFS was also based off of a Den Oudsten Bussen bus. They were never partnered with them, though.

The buses produced in the Netherlands were the D35LF, D40LF, and D45S

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1 hour ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

They were. A low-floor bus was brought over in the mid-'80s, and is still sitting at the Winnipeg factory today.

Fun fact: the NovaBUS LFS was also based off of a Den Oudsten Bussen bus. They were never partnered with them, though.

The buses produced in the Netherlands were the D35LF, D40LF, and D45S

Really?  Where were these D35LF, D40LF, and D45S busses delivered to and operated?

Can't see much demand for North American busses in Europe...

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2 hours ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

The buses produced in the Netherlands were the D35LF, D40LF, and D45S

There is absolutely no record of this ever happening on any of the various sites that tracks this.


Got proof?


Dan

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2 hours ago, Benton Harper said:

Really?  Where were these D35LF, D40LF, and D45S busses delivered to and operated?

Can't see much demand for North American busses in Europe...

Quote

Chassismerken

Merk aantal percentage van/tot   Merk aantal percentage van/tot
DAF
Leyland
Den Oudsten
Volvo
Scania(-Vabis)
Mercedes-Benz
AEC
Seddon
Bedford
BOVA
Ford
Guy
Austin
Neoplan
IVECO
Dodge
Chevrolet
Volkswagen
Crossley
Dennis
Opel
4587
1714
1669
617
143
98
58
57
52
50
50
50
33
32
29
28
26
25
15
11
11
48,64
18,18
17,70
6,54
1,52
1,04
0,62
0,60
0,55
0,53
0,53
0,53
0,35
0,34
0,31
0,30
0,28
0,27
0,16
0,12
0,12
1949-1996
1951-1981
1963-2001
1946-1996
1948-1979
1950-1982
1953-1957
1951-1958
1946-1955
1993-1994
1947-1953
1948-1967
1949-1952
1974-1983
1995-1996
1946-1952
1947-1954
1985-1990
1953-1955
1947-1952
1946-1954
  Diamond T
Kromhout
Saurer
Bussing
Panhard
AS
Citroen
International
Morris
Bianchi
Fordson Thames
MAN
New Flyer D45S
Van Twist
Delahaye
Federal
Fiat
Minerva
NAG
Republic
Trojan
10
10
10
8
8
3
3
3
3
2
2
2
2
2
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
0,11
0,11
0,11
0,08
0,08
0,03
0,03
0,03
0,03
0,02
0,02
0,02
0,02
0,02
0,01
0,01
0,01
0,01
0,01
0,01
0,01
1947-1951
1948-1956
1962
1946-1956
1949-1950
1946, 1954
1947
1947-1948
1947-1949
1947-1949
1946-1954
1956
1998
1955
1947
1947
1948
1946
1947
1946
1950
          Totaal: 9430 100  
2 hours ago, smallspy said:

There is absolutely no record of this ever happening on any of the various sites that tracks this.


Got proof?


Dan

It says so on our wiki, and here: http://www.bus-planet.com/bus/bus-europe/Netherlands-site/builders/DenOudsten/index-DenOudsten.html

Screenshot_20190531-162351.png

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6 hours ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

I suspect there are translation issues...

True the Viking was based on an european bus, but IIRC they were built in the Americas.

And nothing about the d35lf or d40lf.

I'm with Dan, remember the wiki may have content errors, and there is nothing existing to show any european building of NFI busses

 

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19 minutes ago, Benton Harper said:

I suspect there are translation issues...

True the Viking was based on an european bus, but IIRC they were built in the Americas.

And nothing about the d35lf or d40lf.

I'm with Dan, remember the wiki may have content errors, and there is nothing existing to show any european building of NFI busses

 

If you look at the pages, they do mention Den Oudsten Bussen.

D35LF: Called the DL35. Don't know who got them.

Screenshot_20190531-235311.thumb.png.ab282bc6541fe10a21b1ee0457afb7ca.png

D40LF: The prototype was actually a B86 built to North American specs. Houston Metro also got some of these in 1997 (designated DL40).

Screenshot_20190531-234145.thumb.png.59175c15b8325488a8cddc1130357a69.pngScreenshot_20190601-000021.thumb.png.4b99a48ea248f917cf5747006a8be1d0.png

D45S:

Demonstrators/prototypes were built in Europe.

Screenshot_20190531-234605.thumb.png.0b5e87cc7e2ece4ae4974e53361824e9.png

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Interesting, didn't realize that the first Viking was built in Europe

The demo low floor built to north american specs is a given but nothing about the destinations of the other european built busses seems to exist, the shipping and tariffs would have killed any profit

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14 hours ago, Imgursdownvote4love said:

My Dutch isn't, well.........well, I don't know Dutch. But even running through Google Translate, there's nothing on there to indicate with any authority that Den Oudsten built any North American-spec buses in Europe. The guys who track the VINs certainly have never mentionned them, and they've been following these kinds of things for longer than many of you have been alive.

 

As for our Wiki....yeah, no. It's so laughably wrong in so many places as to be useless for any serious research.

 

By the way - screenshots of websites are not "proof". Links to them are better, especially with references to actual researched materials.

 

Dan

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3 hours ago, smallspy said:

By the way - screenshots of websites are not "proof". Links to them are better, especially with references to actual researched materials.

If you click on the links to the models, they are screenshots of the "Demonstrator/engineering units" section. The one you quoted is on the NFI page.

Link to the Houston D40LF/DL40s: https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Metropolitan_Transit_Authority_of_Harris_County#4030-4096,_4107-4156

9 hours ago, Benton Harper said:

Interesting, didn't realize that the first Viking was built in Europe

The demo low floor built to north american specs is a given but nothing about the destinations of the other european built busses seems to exist, the shipping and tariffs would have killed any profit

I'm assuming (as in I have no proof of this) that it was just the frame that was built in Europe (for the Houston Metro units), and they were finished in Canada/USA.

This theory is similar to how the Vicinity was built until 2014 (body built in China by Yaxing, finished in Aldergrove), or the more current example of the Enviro 500 and its predecessors (built in Europe, shipped to Canada).

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On 5/31/2019 at 6:32 PM, tomsbuspage said:

I'd be interested in seeing whether NFI will be offering LHD Plaxton coaches, especially the Panorama to compete with the Van Hool TDX25.

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/products/plaxton-coaches/panorama/

Now that could be a real possibility especially on intercity coach services like Megabus.

One reason being that the lower floor - in what is believed to be an industry first - is step-free throughout. It also has a wider "throat" between the front wheels to allow for wheelchairs to pass through due to the use of a different Volvo front axle module. That would make it far more wheelchair and user friendly than the Van Hool TDX25. Although one would have to wonder how Volvo would feel about this but then it would hardly be a direct competitor to any of Prevost's own products.

The above also makes sense because a large bulk order for Megabus usage (or similar) of the Panorma could probably make the engineering conversion cost worthwhile. That and ADL are already well established with the Enviro 500 double deck bus in the US so a "coach version" in the form of the Panorama would not be seen as a completely unknown entity...although in reality they share little or nothing in common in terms of chassis, body or engine.

I doubt Plaxton will compete against the MCI D or J series and vice versa with MCI in the UK - both markets and products are quite different. The only way I would see that happening is something like the Plaxton Panther being offered as a lower cost product to rival Temsa and the other Chinese-sourced coaches but even then I don't think UK labour rates would allow them to compete at that level on price. I see niche products like the Panorma making it across to the US but not the more standard offerings.

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