DE40LFR

New Flyer Industries Discussion and Photos

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regular diesel buses are considered to be prohibited in Southern California due to how they release large amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere

Originally, I was going to post that it's not just CO2 but PM, NOx, and SOx as well that is regulated. However, my quick research shows it might just be PM and NOx that is regulated in California on the whole.

The EPA also only regulates PM and NOx in diesel engines. They don't regulate CO2.

Regulation to Reduce Emissions of Diesel Particulate Matter, Oxides

of Nitrogen and Other Criteria Pollutants from In-Use Heavy-Duty

Diesel-Fueled Vehicles.

(a) Purpose

The purpose of this regulation is to reduce emissions of diesel particulate matter (PM),

oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and other criteria pollutants from in-use diesel-fueled vehicles.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onrdiesel/documents/tbfinalreg.pdf

There is discussions about regulating GHG's, but, not sure if that's come to pass: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/phaselghg/presentations/hdv_phasel_ws_031113.pdf

As for Southern California, I gather that's the territory of SCAQMD.

I've only done quick research, but, I gather this is the regulation: http://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/rule-book/reg-xi/rule-1192.pdf?sfvrsn=4

And a report on it: http://www.aqmd.gov/docs/default-source/rule-book/support-documents/rule-1192/staff-report-1192.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Again, this report as well mainly focuses on PM and NOx so I gather that's primarily what is intended to be reduced by requiring alternate fuel buses, but, there is a little bit on CO2. The report actually is suggesting that natural gas buses will produce more CO2 than diesel buses.

Particulates are critical because of their adverse effect on respiratory health and because they are a significant toxic air contaminant. Diesel engines have relatively low emissions of carbon monoxide (CO), carbon dioxide (CO2 ), and hydrocarbons (HC). CO emissions create “hot spots” that affect public health, although nearly all areas of California are in attainment for CO. CO2 is a greenhouse gas that contributes to global warming. Emissions of HC are important because in combination with NOx emissions, they create ozone.

In contrast, a natural gas bus engine will have significantly lower NOx and PM emissions than a comparable diesel bus engine, but it will likely have higher CO and CO2 emissions and slightly higher HC emissions. However, the increase in these emissions is small compared to the decrease in NOx and PM emissions..

Diesel transit buses are also not prohibited as a whole apparently. It sounds like that only applies to fleet of 15 or more buses.

RULE 1192. CLEAN ON-ROAD TRANSIT BUSES

(a) Purpose

For public transit fleets operating in the South Coast Air Quality Management

(District), this rule requires public transit fleet operators to acquire alternativefuel

heavy-duty vehicles when procuring or leasing these vehicles to reduce air

toxic and criteria pollutant emissions.

( B) Applicability

This rule applies to those public transit fleets with 15 or more public transit

vehicle or urban buses, operated by government agencies or operated by private

entities under contract to government agencies, that provide passenger

transportation services including intra- and intercity shuttle services. This rule

shall not apply to vehicles or services pursuant to paragraph (e) including school

transportation services, long-distance services, and heavy-duty on-road vehicles

not used for the express purpose of public transportation

So, in summary, no, it is not because of CO2 that diesel buses are regulated in Southern California. Indeed, a diesel bus might well put out less CO2 than the alternate fuel buses that instead are being purchased. There's just a greater benefit to reduce the PM and NOx from diesel buses that more than offsets any extra carbon emissions from CNG.

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SOx should mostly be addressed by the ULSD required by North America for a long time now.

NoX has a lot to do with the actual temperature of combustion in the cylinder. Propane and natural gas engines are known for running hot there.

Intake air is mostly nitrogen. The hotter you go, the more likely that nitrogen will molecularly bond with something else. Typically oxygen

It also goes back to calorific potential. Natural gas has a pretty low calorific value compared to propane, or even diesel. Therefore you have to burn more of it to accomplish the same amount of work.

You physically have to burn more of it, therefore, your carbon monoxide, and dioxide goes up. Maybe even more than a diesel vehicle.

But thumbs up for Mr. parsons for actually digging up the FACTS.

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The Ban has been over turned for the Los Angeles area but do not look for any new Diesel powered stuff. Too much local, State, and Federal funding for cng and electric powered.

The ban imposed on South Coast Air Quality Management District is not overturned. The Federal courts ruled that agencies in California has no jurisdiction over vehicle emission on private fleet vehicles that were originally sold outside California and may be operated outside the SCAQMD (e.g. tour buses, interstate trucks etc) under the Clean Air Act. Those vehicles just has to meet EPA emission standards. It's no different than for example, if you buy a car in Texas and drive it to California, it doesn't need to meet California emission standards.

But the ban remains in effect for all public owned and contracted fleets that were originally sold in California (which Clean Air Act specifically allows CA to regulate because our air quality laws predates Clean Air Act) and operate entirely within the SCAQMD areas - i.e. municipal buses, school buses, airport shuttles, garbage trucks etc.

Individual waivers can be granted but generally speaking, diesel buses are still banned. The ban on diesel does have a sunset provision but since all the fleets have switched to CNG, there is little chance that they will go back to diesel once the ban goes away.

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Can you guys make a new thread already? Every time i look forward to new NFI content i come here and see you guys talking about this still...

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No. It's relevant to the original discussions.

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I disagree and also think that "natural gas vs diesel fuels for buses" should be its own topic.

I mean, the last post of the discussion (before MaT intervened) no longer even refers to New Flyer. We're just talking about fuels in general at this point.

Additionally, if we decide to continue fuels in this thread, it sets a bad example for newer members who may be more inclined (as some have already done) to do tangents in other parts of the forum.

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The ban imposed on South Coast Air Quality Management District is not overturned. The Federal courts ruled that agencies in California has no jurisdiction over vehicle emission on private fleet vehicles that were originally sold outside California and may be operated outside the SCAQMD (e.g. tour buses, interstate trucks etc) under the Clean Air Act. Those vehicles just has to meet EPA emission standards. It's no different than for example, if you buy a car in Texas and drive it to California, it doesn't need to meet California emission standards.

But the ban remains in effect for all public owned and contracted fleets that were originally sold in California (which Clean Air Act specifically allows CA to regulate because our air quality laws predates Clean Air Act) and operate entirely within the SCAQMD areas - i.e. municipal buses, school buses, airport shuttles, garbage trucks etc.

Individual waivers can be granted but generally speaking, diesel buses are still banned. The ban on diesel does have a sunset provision but since all the fleets have switched to CNG, there is little chance that they will go back to diesel once the ban goes away.

If that is the case then why is LAMTA still running its VI fleet that is run by it contractors on the contract routes?

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Did the L30LF even exist? There seems to be an empty entry on the VIN explanation template.

The old thread I found didn't give an exact answer.

Edit: Nevermind, the last time its wiki page was updated was last year and I doubt I will even get an answer.

Edited by Express691

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I just noticed that New Flyer refreshed their website today to look more like the most recent one that NABI had before being merged... Quite the upgrade in looks versus the last version, which had probably been around for a decade at least. Some sections appear to be incomplete or missing though... so definitely a work in progress still.

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On 7/18/2016 at 10:39 PM, Millennium2002 said:

I just noticed that New Flyer refreshed their website today to look more like the most recent one that NABI had before being merged... Quite the upgrade in looks versus the last version, which had probably been around for a decade at least. Some sections appear to be incomplete or missing though... so definitely a work in progress still.

Interesting that the new website still doesn't include the MCI products...

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Most likely that has to do with MCI still being a wholly owned subsidiary (and not an integral part) of the New Flyer Group.

Perhaps in due time, the brands will be completely merged... but it's more likely that both will live on as they cater to different segments of the bus market, just like how Volvo retains the use of the NovaBus and Prevost brands.

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Detroit DOT is supposed to receive 30 additional XD60s by September 2016-January 2017. (source, as there is apparently no news on this)

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On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:28 PM, TheAverageJoe said:

If that is the case then why is LAMTA still running its VI fleet that is run by it contractors on the contract routes?

The diesel Orion VIs made in 2000-2001 have less than 500,000-1,000,000 miles on them, and they throw smoke more than OCTA's diesel buses. These buses still have Detroit Diesel Series 50 in them, to that point these had no repowers just because First Transit and MV Transportation need them for their routes. Fortunately these diesels have not resulted in contamination. All the Gilligs died long ago! Only Orion remains... by whatever means! They are still in control! And I assure you; There's absolutely no TMCs in that contractor. I want more than just to ride diesel buses... I want them!

IMG_0562LACMTA 11067LACMTA 11027LACMTA 11023

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I rode unit 5501 today at route 66, a demo C40LFR made in September 2006 according to the builder's plate. It had the old New Flyer logo in it found on one other unit, 7529. I also rode 7408 on the 57X, where it had under 500,000 miles in it, including some of the New Flyer D40LFs and D60LFs, to that point they must last longer before being retired. They're not finished yet! OC Bus CEO Darrell Johnson made a promise to New Flyer to buy over 200 XN40s to rid the New Flyer diesels for more natural gas to the point I'm gonna go throw up! And they betray him as they stand here before him! So now... he will destroy them both, turning them into scrap metal!

OCTA 7416OCTA 5387OCTA 5577IMG_0577IMG_0553OCTA 5501OCTA 5331 (2)OCTA 7618OCTA 5707 (2)

 

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Not sure if this is the right place to post, spotted 4 all white NFI MD30 Midi eastbound around Brockville on Hwy 401 on 7/31 Sunday.  I assume they are on the way being delivered to Quebec but can't confirm

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9 hours ago, Cimon8000 said:

Not sure if this is the right place to post, spotted 4 all white NFI MD30 Midi eastbound around Brockville on Hwy 401 on 7/31 Sunday.  I assume they are on the way being delivered to Quebec but can't confirm

Not a bad place for this info. There is a MiDi thread if you want to hone in on the subject more.

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I think I'll stick this here.

I'm still working on some permanent way of putting some of my collection on the internet. Thanks to Captain Trolley as this originally came from her collection.

Enjoy!

Flyer-SpecSheet-Web-20170706WMa.pdf

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. Does anyone  know how long the articulated buses like The front section the middle section in the end section

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9 hours ago, M. Parsons said:

I think I'll stick this here.

I'm still working on some permanent way of putting some of my collection on the internet. Thanks to Captain Trolley as this originally came from her collection.

Enjoy!

Flyer-SpecSheet-Web-20170706WMa.pdf

 

Holy crap! That's absolutely brilliant! Way more info in there than any of us ever needs to know.

 

Thanks to you both for saving and sharing this.

 

Dan

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2 hours ago, smallspy said:

 

Holy crap! That's absolutely brilliant! Way more info in there than any of us ever needs to know.

 

Thanks to you both for saving and sharing this.

 

Dan

You're welcome. Back in the days when you could write to a company and they actually cared enough about their image and customer service to write back.

I was more of a nerd / geek back then.

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It's a sad day in Victoria today. This old girl is getting sent to the crusher. 1995 New Flyer D40LF. 

019 (Large).JPG

018 (Large).JPG

017 (Large).JPG

015 (Large).JPG

014 (Large).JPG

013 (Large).JPG

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Production of the North American version of the Enviro200 will be taken in house by Alexander Dennis at its plant in Napannee later this Year.

The agreement for New Flyer to produce it has been mutually ended.

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