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On 1/14/2020 at 5:28 PM, STO_1601 said:

This thread now has 165 pages.

Yes

What am I doing??

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A little flex for this summer 

London bound this summer

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Dunno where else to share this but this is a cool documentary about the Expo Express.

ENJOY (if you can stand the terrible incidental music.) This video is so 1960s that if it gets any more 60s-er Steve McQueen would be narrating it. ūü§£

 

On 1/2/2020 at 10:05 AM, Wayside Observer said:

Benefit?  None.  Trolling the foamers can be entertaining as is getting some of the ageing baby boomers riled up.

I'm taking a break as well because there really isn't anything left to foam (that interests me) now that the CLRVs are gone. I shot over 24 hours of video on them and editing them will take years. ūü§£ I need a break from foaming.

Plus life calls.

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10 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Dunno where else to share this but this is a cool documentary about the Expo Express.

ENJOY (if you can stand the terrible incidental music.) This video is so 1960s that if it gets any more 60s-er Steve McQueen would be narrating it. ūü§£

 

Oh yeah.  That was total sixties for sure.  Did you notice something interesting about that film?   The amount of debris and scratches in the picture area was pretty severe especially during the first half; obviously that print got run through a projector a ton of times but the soundtrack sounded clean and didn’t reflect the film damage.  Maybe they had a copy of the soundtrack on tape or fullcoat mag stock but I’d have expected better fidelity if that was the case.  Weird.
 

I cringed though at the part where they were talking about the dual control system where the power for the traction motors goes through the manual (H1 console!) control stand or the automatic box like it’s a K type platform controller in a Peter Witt car where the operator’s hand is right on a crank that switches the 600!   No, it’s a control stand or an ATO box feeding control information into the propulsion package in each car.  This is easier than you’d think at first glance on multiple unit cars since all you need to do is get the ATO box to put valid commands onto the train line buss and actuate some valves to change train air brake pipe pressure.  The propulsion and braking packages don’t care where the air pipe pressure changes or train line electrical buss  changes come from.  ATO box, the car’s control stand, a control stand in another car somewhere else in the train, in a multiple unit environment it doesn’t matter, dogs don’t know it’s not bacon.

 

10 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

I'm taking a break as well because there really isn't anything left to foam (that interests me) now that the CLRVs are gone. I shot over 24 hours of video on them and editing them will take years. ūü§£ I need a break from foaming.

Plus life calls.

No kidding.  I was talking with a couple of friends about it and if the Gloucesters being retired in late 1990 was the beginning of the end, the CLRV retirement a couple of weeks ago was the end of the end, if you will.  There’s very little left that interests me.

Life calls, very true.  Sometimes it calls literally.  One friend called and we went for breakfast this morning.  I resisted the temptation to screw with the restaurant’s jukebox wall box feed.  Another called with some info about the upcoming football season.  Another called to ask about this side project I’ve got going on the bench for him.

Actually, I’ve got more shit than I can shake a stick at going on outside of my full time job which is why I never have any free time and I could honestly use some personal downtime to decompress.  Last night I finally put together a chair and ottoman that I bought two Boxing Day sales ago and put a floor lamp next to them to make a nice reading nook but that’s the kind of backlog I’ve been dealing with.

So foaming now that everything that interested me is gone is pretty much not on the list.  Definitely time for a break.  As for the guy who shouted me down when we were talking about the GTA rot a while ago who things I should volunteer to make this a better hobby?  Part of me wants to say it’s beyond redemption.  Part of me wants to ask WTF he thinks this thing is

091DAA1C-E30C-4F8E-9D81-6F3CF2384E44.thumb.jpeg.5fa98030806bc23979925c6bffc80ae8.jpeg

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along with the pile of remote assistance that some friends and I have been providing to another place that has a balky LRV.  Part of me wants to say have you seen my house and my work schedule?

Life called and I’ve been keeping the hold button down way too long.  It’s time to pick it back up and go with a minimum foam existence for the next while.

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3 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

Oh yeah.  That was total sixties for sure.  Did you notice something interesting about that film?   The amount of debris and scratches in the picture area was pretty severe especially during the first half; obviously that print got run through a projector a ton of times but the soundtrack sounded clean and didn’t reflect the film damage.  Maybe they had a copy of the soundtrack on tape or fullcoat mag stock but I’d have expected better fidelity if that was the case.  Weird.
 

I cringed though at the part where they were talking about the dual control system where the power for the traction motors goes through the manual (H1 console!) control stand or the automatic box like it’s a K type platform controller in a Peter Witt car where the operator’s hand is right on a crank that switches the 600!   No, it’s a control stand or an ATO box feeding control information into the propulsion package in each car.  This is easier than you’d think at first glance on multiple unit cars since all you need to do is get the ATO box to put valid commands onto the train line buss and actuate some valves to change train air brake pipe pressure.  The propulsion and braking packages don’t care where the air pipe pressure changes or train line electrical buss  changes come from.  ATO box, the car’s control stand, a control stand in another car somewhere else in the train, in a multiple unit environment it doesn’t matter, dogs don’t know it’s not bacon.

 

No kidding.  I was talking with a couple of friends about it and if the Gloucesters being retired in late 1990 was the beginning of the end, the CLRV retirement a couple of weeks ago was the end of the end, if you will.  There’s very little left that interests me.

Life calls, very true.  Sometimes it calls literally.  One friend called and we went for breakfast this morning.  I resisted the temptation to screw with the restaurant’s jukebox wall box feed.  Another called with some info about the upcoming football season.  Another called to ask about this side project I’ve got going on the bench for him.

Actually, I’ve got more shit than I can shake a stick at going on outside of my full time job which is why I never have any free time and I could honestly use some personal downtime to decompress.  Last night I finally put together a chair and ottoman that I bought two Boxing Day sales ago and put a floor lamp next to them to make a nice reading nook but that’s the kind of backlog I’ve been dealing with.

So foaming now that everything that interested me is gone is pretty much not on the list.  Definitely time for a break.  As for the guy who shouted me down when we were talking about the GTA rot a while ago who things I should volunteer to make this a better hobby?  Part of me wants to say it’s beyond redemption.  Part of me wants to ask WTF he thinks this thing is

091DAA1C-E30C-4F8E-9D81-6F3CF2384E44.thumb.jpeg.5fa98030806bc23979925c6bffc80ae8.jpeg

7FAFF7CF-9099-4739-B878-D09FB1174241.thumb.jpeg.f13910feef509ccc1b2bfc3afba15dc8.jpeg

along with the pile of remote assistance that some friends and I have been providing to another place that has a balky LRV.  Part of me wants to say have you seen my house and my work schedule?

Life called and I’ve been keeping the hold button down way too long.  It’s time to pick it back up and go with a minimum foam existence for the next while.

LOL yeah I was confused about their description of how the car worked. There was one too many utterance of the word "manual".ūü§£ They didn't really go into detail on how the ATO worked either. In NYC when they tried out ATO on an R21 or 22 (I think) around the same time, it used punched film. How did the Expo Express work? It's crazy how similar the train was to an H1 and a shame they never kept the cars in a museum or used them for regular rapid transit somehow.

As for the film itself, the damage is brutal and the colour makes it look more like 50s 16mm stuff. The worst were the end credits. Did you catch that? I dunno if the titles are wobbling intentionally or the film is so damaged that it's not completely flat. Either way it doesn't look like they scanned the film frame by frame but instead maybe recorded it off a screen. There is distortion in the picture. The sound effects however killed me. ūü§£ ūü§£ ūü§£ That and the shots of the 60s mod chicks had me waiting to see if Austin Powers was going to jump out in the middle of the car which transforms itself into a GoGo cage. ūü§£ ūü§£¬† Great find. Expo 67 must have been fun. I actually have a map of it that I found in a box of records I bought a couple years ago!

 

 

Where is that PCC in your photo? Are you working on that in person? I really wish we had more PCCs in the city. They shouldn't have ended the 100% PCC operation on the 604. It would have been a nice tourist line. They can mix it up with the CLRVs and ALRV they saved. It's something ain't it. Streetcars I grew up with are now in a museum. The thing is for me, they don't look as old fashioned as the PCC or Peter Witt. They still have a contemporary look to them. I wasn't expecting them to last as long as they did either. But it was sure sad to see and hear them in their last days. Especially those couple of cars that made this really weird and extremely loud thumping noise that shook the entire car. It was time to go. I don't really mind the new cars. I think they look cool. I like that nice clean, neat and symmetrical appearance. And it is interesting to ride on a low floor rail vehicle. But that's the end of the really old school style of streetcar.
 

I have a huge backlog of videos to upload. I am not even a third of the way through the stuff I shot in 2009. I then have my stuff from 2011 which is in HDV. It will be at least two or three years before I even get to sort out the CLRV video before editing. That's just one side project. I have some UNIX studying and goals I want to accomplish like learning basic C programming. This aside from my home business is enough to keep me busy. So I won't really be checking in here often. I kinds wanna take a break from anything transit though. The last day of the CLRVs renewed my aversion to foamers. I am still disgusted by the reckless behaviour I saw. The TTC was being very generous.

Volunteer is the last thing I'd do based on similar treatment I got to yourself at certain places near Guelph that shall remain nameless. ūüėĆ I won't join any groups either. After the days, night and hours of filming and the nearly five bills I've dropped on the project, my fondest memory of the first time in nearly a decade I went photographing /videotaping was sitting at the ex at a picnic table and just watching the cars with my lunch. No cameras. Just music. That's the way I started enjoying the hobby. That's the way I like it.

Glad to hear you got some projects lined up. With a workshop like that I would be looking for stuff to fix just cause. I wish I had that equipment and knowhow. Solder and pray was my method. It will be years before I foam again. Maybe I'll shoot some current stuff for posterity because I learned long ago to always shoot the new stuff. Even if you don't like it. I suppose all that's left of the old TTC are the RT cars. But they ruined them with that hideous paint or wrap job. They're pretty extra with a little rinky dink, five stop train set that blew nearly 300 million in eighties dollars to demo the Skytrain tech. ūü§£

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6 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

LOL yeah I was confused about their description of how the car worked. There was one too many utterance of the word "manual".ūü§£ They didn't really go into detail on how the ATO worked either. In NYC when they tried out ATO on an R21 or 22 (I think), it used punched film. How did the Expo Express work? It's crazy how similar the train was to an H1 and a shame they never kept the cars in a museum or used them for regular rapid transit somehow.

As for the film itself, the damage is brutal and the colour makes it look more like 50s 16mm stuff. The worst were the end credits. Did you catch that? I dunno if the titles are wobbling intentionally or the film is so damaged that it's not completely flat. Either way it doesn't look like they scanned the film frame by frame but instead maybe recorded it off a screen. There is distortion in the picture. The sound effects however killed me. ūü§£ ūü§£ ūü§£ That and the shots of the 60s mod chicks had me waiting to see if Austin Powers was going to jump out in the middle of the car which transforms itself into a GoGo cage. ūü§£ ūü§£¬† Great find. Expo 67 must have been fun. I actually have a map of it that I found in a box of records I bought a couple years ago!

Yeah, I ended up with the impression that the script was clearly written by someone who didn't fully understand the material they were trying to explain with they way they struggled in places.  I was able to glean some information from the displays they showed though.  Maximum authorized speed was communicated to the trains through audio frequency signals fed into the running rails of each section of line and that was picked up and decoded by the ATO box on the train.  What I couldn't figure out was how the status of the blocks of line ahead was sent back to the train unless the speed code was changed from line speed and dropped to 0 MPH in the blocks behind one occupied by a train to force the next train behind to stop or if a second set of codes was present.  The Victoria Line in London also opened in 1967 and had a track circuit based ATO system where one set of tones pumped into the track gave the maximum authorized speed in that section and the other set gave the state of the signalling system about whether it was clear, at danger or restricted, so similar.

What surprised me about the Expo line in the movie was the wayside beacon located almost like the Identra coil readers were in Toronto before each station that signalled to the trains to slow down and stop.  If that's the extent of stopping a train and positioning it accurately on the platform to the 1.5 foot tolerance they mentioned in the narration, that'd be extremely dependent on the train hitting the beacon at the expected speed every time and not coming in slower due to closely following the one ahead, and accurate braking rate maintenance regardless of loading and weather conditions.  That's not much to go on to get a high degree of repeatability under varying conditions and I would've thought there'd have been a lot more positional feedback designed into the system for lining up platform stops at the stations.  I have to say watching out the front window in that movie of the moving train while the controller handle's cranked all the way over to the shutdown position is a bit wild!

It is a shame though that the whole thing was junked after Expo; if more housing than Moshe Safdie's Habitat was built along the line after Expo closed, the train would've been a great little rapid transit line to connect it all to the main island or at least to the Ille St. Helene metro stop.  What really struck me about the movie was seeing how much stuff there was in the Expo grounds.  There's not a whole lot left which is a shame.  My understanding is that it was a lot of fun and a huge deal especially Expo 67 lined up with the centennial that year.  There was a big show on for the 50th anniversary back in 2017 that a lot of boomers including my parents who went to Expo went and visited for.

The film itself is in sad shape unfortunately.  To be brutally honest, it's a beat up release print that's been run through a projector a ton of times and it's picked up some scratches along its length and it's gotten dirty plus fifty years of age and the colour dyes are deteriorating and it may be developing vinegar syndrome.  I played the first couple of minutes again with the volume turned up and I could hear problems with the sound after all but still does sound a lot better than the damage to the picture area would suggest it should.

The issue with the credits at the end weaving up and down probably isn't due to the film being warped but more likely the sprocket holes have worn after the many trips it's had through a projector so it's wandering around a bit as each frame gets moved through the gate on the telecine machine (hopefully not another projector with a camcorder filming a movie screen) instead of being accurately registered in the same position each time.  And the film wasn't cleaned either before being captured on video, that's for sure, but to be fair, it's getting harder to find that service with the regulations around some of the chemicals that were used.  One place I worked at had a film cleaning machine in a special room with a barrier several inches high along the doorway to the film cleaning room so any chemical spill would be confined to the room and wouldn't get into the hallway and there were standing orders for how chemical spills were to be handled including specific instructions that the fire department was to be called for a hazmat team to assist if more than a certain volume was estimated to have spilled.  Another place dropped the service completely and became a straight up telecine operation.  Three guesses and the first two don't count if they lowered their prices to reflect the absence of film cleaning before being put through the telecine machine.

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14 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Yeah, I ended up with the impression that the script was clearly written by someone who didn't fully understand the material they were trying to explain with they way they struggled in places.  I was able to glean some information from the displays they showed though.  Maximum authorized speed was communicated to the trains through audio frequency signals fed into the running rails of each section of line and that was picked up and decoded by the ATO box on the train.  What I couldn't figure out was how the status of the blocks of line ahead was sent back to the train unless the speed code was changed from line speed and dropped to 0 MPH in the blocks behind one occupied by a train to force the next train behind to stop or if a second set of codes was present.  The Victoria Line in London also opened in 1967 and had a track circuit based ATO system where one set of tones pumped into the track gave the maximum authorized speed in that section and the other set gave the state of the signalling system about whether it was clear, at danger or restricted, so similar.

What surprised me about the Expo line in the movie was the wayside beacon located almost like the Identra coil readers were in Toronto before each station that signalled to the trains to slow down and stop.  If that's the extent of stopping a train and positioning it accurately on the platform to the 1.5 foot tolerance they mentioned in the narration, that'd be extremely dependent on the train hitting the beacon at the expected speed every time and not coming in slower due to closely following the one ahead, and accurate braking rate maintenance regardless of loading and weather conditions.  That's not much to go on to get a high degree of repeatability under varying conditions and I would've thought there'd have been a lot more positional feedback designed into the system for lining up platform stops at the stations.  I have to say watching out the front window in that movie of the moving train while the controller handle's cranked all the way over to the shutdown position is a bit wild!

It is a shame though that the whole thing was junked after Expo; if more housing than Moshe Safdie's Habitat was built along the line after Expo closed, the train would've been a great little rapid transit line to connect it all to the main island or at least to the Ille St. Helene metro stop.  What really struck me about the movie was seeing how much stuff there was in the Expo grounds.  There's not a whole lot left which is a shame.  My understanding is that it was a lot of fun and a huge deal especially Expo 67 lined up with the centennial that year.  There was a big show on for the 50th anniversary back in 2017 that a lot of boomers including my parents who went to Expo went and visited for.

The film itself is in sad shape unfortunately.  To be brutally honest, it's a beat up release print that's been run through a projector a ton of times and it's picked up some scratches along its length and it's gotten dirty plus fifty years of age and the colour dyes are deteriorating and it may be developing vinegar syndrome.  I played the first couple of minutes again with the volume turned up and I could hear problems with the sound after all but still does sound a lot better than the damage to the picture area would suggest it should.

The issue with the credits at the end weaving up and down probably isn't due to the film being warped but more likely the sprocket holes have worn after the many trips it's had through a projector so it's wandering around a bit as each frame gets moved through the gate on the telecine machine (hopefully not another projector with a camcorder filming a movie screen) instead of being accurately registered in the same position each time.  And the film wasn't cleaned either before being captured on video, that's for sure, but to be fair, it's getting harder to find that service with the regulations around some of the chemicals that were used.  One place I worked at had a film cleaning machine in a special room with a barrier several inches high along the doorway to the film cleaning room so any chemical spill would be confined to the room and wouldn't get into the hallway and there were standing orders for how chemical spills were to be handled including specific instructions that the fire department was to be called for a hazmat team to assist if more than a certain volume was estimated to have spilled.  Another place dropped the service completely and became a straight up telecine operation.  Three guesses and the first two don't count if they lowered their prices to reflect the absence of film cleaning before being put through the telecine machine.

Oh right, duh. I forgot about kinescopes. I would have just gone the scan route but boy that service isn't any cheaper. Especially if you have it done in 4k. The video itself on YouTube appears to be 1080p. Still that's some serious gate weave to make the credits wobble as they are. The audio sounds way better than the picture lets on that's for sure.

I forgot about the fact that those NYC cars I mentioned used radio signals as well. It was the stationary control on the platforms that used film and then sent signals to the track that were picked up by the very same identra coil. I wonder why with all those years of practice why ATO never became a thing. Probably a union thing. I also noticed in the video that the train had proper A/C. I didn't realize that was an option at the time. I wonder why the TTC didn't get it for the H1s. They were getting a lot of funding back then from the provincial government. Nowhere near the joke funding they get today. So much so that the B-D line opened one year prematurely. I never really felt hot on the subway cars with fans but still it would have been nice.

Expo 67 seemed to have a global impact. There were many famous band that played there. There's even a reggae song called "Last train to Expo 67". I still don't really know what they're about. Was it like the old CNE where they featured new technology? Or was it more like the current CNE as a giant industrial themed amusement park? Did they stop doing this? I only heard of the 1982 Expo and the 86 one after it and that's it. Damn. I used to have some slides taken during the construction of the 86 Expo with shots of the brand new Skytrain and ROW. Dunno what happened to those. Whatever it's purpose I'm sure it out Montreal on the map. They should have kept the train though. Or at least send em to Toronto for spare parts.

 

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4 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

No kidding.  I was talking with a couple of friends about it and if the Gloucesters being retired in late 1990 was the beginning of the end, the CLRV retirement a couple of weeks ago was the end of the end, if you will.  There’s very little left that interests me.

To me the H5 retirement was the beginning of the end, and the T1 retirement would be the end of the end.

1 hour ago, Downsview 108 said:

I suppose all that's left of the old TTC are the RT cars.

I'd say the T1's can also be counted as old at this point.

1 hour ago, Downsview 108 said:

But they ruined them with that hideous paint or wrap job.

And by getting rid of the original 1970's interior and door chimes.

1 hour ago, Downsview 108 said:

It's crazy how similar the train was to an H1 and a shame they never kept the cars in a museum or used them for regular rapid transit somehow.

The Expo Express cars were based on the H1, but I think the front of the train looks incredibly ugly. Definitely would've rather seen a real H1 preserved than one of those. They ruined the H1 almost as badly as uzbekistan ruined the 81-717 with their hideous "refurbishment". <_< Goes to show: don't judge a vehicle by its modifications/refurbs found elsewhere. That said, hopefully someday I can make a trip to Ankara and ride those modified H6's.

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2 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

Oh right, duh. I forgot about kinescopes. I would have just gone the scan route but boy that service isn't any cheaper. Especially if you have it done in 4k. The video itself on YouTube appears to be 1080p. Still that's some serious gate weave to make the credits wobble as they are. The audio sounds way better than the picture lets on that's for sure.

You mean telecine.  Kinescopes were machines that went in the opposite direction and had a film camera facing a CRT screen with long persistence phosphors to record video on movie film.  Movie film playback is an interesting beast since the sound and picture requirements are completely opposite.  For the best picture, the film needs to advance, come to a complete stop and be perfectly accurately registered in the gate, shutter open, shutter closed, then in motion to advance to the next frame so it's alternating between a complete stop and moving pretty fast.  On the other hand, for sound playback without awful wow and flutter or warbling, the film needs to stay moving at a steady rate with absolutely minimal speed variation over the sound head located 19 frames downstream from the projection gate.  For 35mm, that means it has to be moving at a steady 90 feet a minute only 19 frames of distance away from where it's constantly stop/starting.  Usually there's a polished drum spinning backwards against the film on the backing (non-emulsion) side with a light tension to buck the rough movement from the gate mechanism and even out the film speed so it's consistent before it hits the sound head.  I forget the exact measurements for 16mm like the Expo movie but the setup's similar along with the requirements to go from stop/start in the gate to smooth movement through the sound head housing.

2 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

I forgot about the fact that those NYC cars I mentioned used radio signals as well. It was the stationary control on the platforms that used film and then sent signals to the track that were picked up by the very same identra coil. I wonder why with all those years of practice why ATO never became a thing. Probably a union thing. I also noticed in the video that the train had proper A/C. I didn't realize that was an option at the time. I wonder why the TTC didn't get it for the H1s. They were getting a lot of funding back then from the provincial government. Nowhere near the joke funding they get today. So much so that the B-D line opened one year prematurely. I never really felt hot on the subway cars with fans but still it would have been nice.

The union didn't like the ATO demo in NYC and there was a suspicious fire where the automatic trains got burned and that was the end of that.  NYC's dabbling in ATO now but retrofitting it on existing lines is not easy compared to building a new line where the ATO is designed in from the outset.  The MTA started going ATO on the 7 Flushing line first and the Carnarsie St. line (L?).  Those are relatively simple lines by NYC standards with no branching and no interlining with other lines.  In the case of the Flushing line, there's the middle track reversible express section but that's about it for complexity.  The problem is, retrofitting an ATO system on other lines where you have multiple branches, local/express tracks, and interline operation with other lines and that's really difficult.  Do you cut over every line to ATO that has an overlapping section at the same time?  Or, if you don't, how do you manage ATO plus wayside only over the same section of track over the same service hours of the day with no temporal separation?  It becomes a staggaring undertaking when you start thinking about those things.  Retrofitting ATO on the TTC subway or, for that matter the Montreal metro's a relatively sane project.  That's actually one thing the movie made me think about, if the Montreal metro ATO retrofit that started operating in 1976 was partially inspired by the experience they had with the Expo train system.

The air conditioning, that's Toronto miserlyness.  Sure, they bought H5s with air conditioning in the mid/late seventies.  They finally started buying buses with air conditioning in the mid eighties.  But they were still buying streetcars without air conditioning in the middle of the 80s too.  I couldn't believe they didn't spring for A/C on the ALRVs but they'd only just started getting air conditioned buses around then too but honestly, that should've included the ALRVs.

2 minutes ago, Downsview 108 said:

Expo 67 seemed to have a global impact. There were many famous band that played there. There's even a reggae song called "Last train to Expo 67". I still don't really know what they're about. Was it like the old CNE where they featured new technology? Or was it more like the current CNE as a giant industrial themed amusement park? Did they stop doing this? I only heard of the 1982 Expo and the 86 one after it and that's it. Damn. I used to have some slides taken during the construction of the 86 Expo with shots of the brand new Skytrain and ROW. Dunno what happened to those. Whatever it's purpose I'm sure it out Montreal on the map. They should have kept the train though. Or at least send em to Toronto for spare parts.

There are still world's fairs but they're not a big deal like they used to be.  My understanding is like it's a giant version of the old CNE where companies, countries, provinces, states, you name it set up pavilions showing off the best of everything they had, not just technology.  The Canada 150 back in 2017 felt like such a bust.  The centennial and the Expo put both Montreal and Canada on the map in a big way.  Look at all the centennial projects that were built in communities all across the country.  Nothing like that was done for Canada 150, just the show in Ottawa in front of parliament hill.

9 minutes ago, 81-717 said:

To me the H5 retirement was the beginning of the end, and the T1 retirement would be the end of the end.

I'd say the T1's can also be counted as old at this point.

And by getting rid of the original 1970's interior and door chimes.

Good point about the T1s.  Those are the last of the traditional married pair subway cars and the Scarborough RT cars, wow, those have been turned into nasty awful little trains on the inside and the Line 3 wrap on the outside is a joke of a Grade 3 art project.  You know, I remember when that line opened and it was so exciting with these new high tech trains with such high hope and promise for the future that turned into such a letdown so fast.  Nobody thought it would be the colossal white elephant it was.  I miss the original interiors with the transverse seats with the cushions, the wood trim and cream, and the unique RT paint scheme that didn't fall into any of the schemes the TTC used on anything else.  That monotone grey everywhere is hideous and that exterior Line 3 garbage is insulting at how stupid they assume the customers are about knowing which of the two rapid transit lines at Kennedy they're getting on to.

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37 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

Good point about the T1s.  Those are the last of the traditional married pair subway cars

That's exactly what I like about them compared to the TR, the R46+, and unfortunately the 81-717 too.

37 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

I miss the original interiors with the transverse seats with the cushions, the wood trim and cream

In my opinion the H5/6's had by far the best interior design with the woodgrain and cream, and bright orange/chrome yellow (and also the bright red floor on the H5s). The RT interior never really offered much except the woodgrain, the rest of it was a generic gray/white (plus the standard red seats). The R46 interior is very similar to the H6 even though those cars were built in 1974-1975 like the H4's.

37 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

and the unique RT paint scheme that didn't fall into any of the schemes the TTC used on anything else.

I think the original exterior RT paint scheme wasn't that different from the one used on buses and streetcars.

37 minutes ago, Wayside Observer said:

That monotone grey everywhere is hideous

Agreed, it never fails to disappoint me how/why the bright/warm interior colors like those of the H5/6 became outdated in favor of much more bland schemes like gray/white. Apparently the H5/6 interior style was exclusive to the 1970's, and was already outdated by 1980 (in NYC the R44/46 were the only cars to have it, the R62's and R68's, both built in the 1980's, already didn't have it). On the other hand, a lot of classic 81-717's do have the 1970's interior design, even those built in 1995-2014.

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4 hours ago, 81-717 said:

To me the H5 retirement was the beginning of the end, and the T1 retirement would be the end of the end.

I'd say the T1's can also be counted as old at this point.

And by getting rid of the original 1970's interior and door chimes.

The Expo Express cars were based on the H1, but I think the front of the train looks incredibly ugly. Definitely would've rather seen a real H1 preserved than one of those. They ruined the H1 almost as badly as uzbekistan ruined the 81-717 with their hideous "refurbishment". <_< Goes to show: don't judge a vehicle by its modifications/refurbs found elsewhere. That said, hopefully someday I can make a trip to Ankara and ride those modified H6's.

The H5 retirement was a bit sad because those are the cars I remember most besides the H1s when I was little. Also because they broke down on the last trip which I didn't attend unfortunately.

True, the T1s are the last of the old style subway cars that everyone seems to be slowly phasing out in favour of these new gangway subway trains.

Oh, I agree with you about the front of the Expo Express. That turbo 60s "space age" look. ūü§£ūü§£ūü§£ I always thought that the camshaft H cars' front design was reminiscent of NYC's "turtle back" cars with that design at the top.

Those H6s in Ankara look interesting. They're like half H6/T1. I wonder if they are AC just like the T1s. It sure is weird seeing those classic TTC rounded windows in another country.

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4 hours ago, Wayside Observer said:

You mean telecine.  Kinescopes were machines that went in the opposite direction and had a film camera facing a CRT screen with long persistence phosphors to record video on movie film.  Movie film playback is an interesting beast since the sound and picture requirements are completely opposite.  For the best picture, the film needs to advance, come to a complete stop and be perfectly accurately registered in the gate, shutter open, shutter closed, then in motion to advance to the next frame so it's alternating between a complete stop and moving pretty fast.  On the other hand, for sound playback without awful wow and flutter or warbling, the film needs to stay moving at a steady rate with absolutely minimal speed variation over the sound head located 19 frames downstream from the projection gate.  For 35mm, that means it has to be moving at a steady 90 feet a minute only 19 frames of distance away from where it's constantly stop/starting.  Usually there's a polished drum spinning backwards against the film on the backing (non-emulsion) side with a light tension to buck the rough movement from the gate mechanism and even out the film speed so it's consistent before it hits the sound head.  I forget the exact measurements for 16mm like the Expo movie but the setup's similar along with the requirements to go from stop/start in the gate to smooth movement through the sound head housing.

The union didn't like the ATO demo in NYC and there was a suspicious fire where the automatic trains got burned and that was the end of that.  NYC's dabbling in ATO now but retrofitting it on existing lines is not easy compared to building a new line where the ATO is designed in from the outset.  The MTA started going ATO on the 7 Flushing line first and the Carnarsie St. line (L?).  Those are relatively simple lines by NYC standards with no branching and no interlining with other lines.  In the case of the Flushing line, there's the middle track reversible express section but that's about it for complexity.  The problem is, retrofitting an ATO system on other lines where you have multiple branches, local/express tracks, and interline operation with other lines and that's really difficult.  Do you cut over every line to ATO that has an overlapping section at the same time?  Or, if you don't, how do you manage ATO plus wayside only over the same section of track over the same service hours of the day with no temporal separation?  It becomes a staggaring undertaking when you start thinking about those things.  Retrofitting ATO on the TTC subway or, for that matter the Montreal metro's a relatively sane project.  That's actually one thing the movie made me think about, if the Montreal metro ATO retrofit that started operating in 1976 was partially inspired by the experience they had with the Expo train system.

The air conditioning, that's Toronto miserlyness.  Sure, they bought H5s with air conditioning in the mid/late seventies.  They finally started buying buses with air conditioning in the mid eighties.  But they were still buying streetcars without air conditioning in the middle of the 80s too.  I couldn't believe they didn't spring for A/C on the ALRVs but they'd only just started getting air conditioned buses around then too but honestly, that should've included the ALRVs.

There are still world's fairs but they're not a big deal like they used to be.  My understanding is like it's a giant version of the old CNE where companies, countries, provinces, states, you name it set up pavilions showing off the best of everything they had, not just technology.  The Canada 150 back in 2017 felt like such a bust.  The centennial and the Expo put both Montreal and Canada on the map in a big way.  Look at all the centennial projects that were built in communities all across the country.  Nothing like that was done for Canada 150, just the show in Ottawa in front of parliament hill.

Good point about the T1s.  Those are the last of the traditional married pair subway cars and the Scarborough RT cars, wow, those have been turned into nasty awful little trains on the inside and the Line 3 wrap on the outside is a joke of a Grade 3 art project.  You know, I remember when that line opened and it was so exciting with these new high tech trains with such high hope and promise for the future that turned into such a letdown so fast.  Nobody thought it would be the colossal white elephant it was.  I miss the original interiors with the transverse seats with the cushions, the wood trim and cream, and the unique RT paint scheme that didn't fall into any of the schemes the TTC used on anything else.  That monotone grey everywhere is hideous and that exterior Line 3 garbage is insulting at how stupid they assume the customers are about knowing which of the two rapid transit lines at Kennedy they're getting on to.

LOL my bad. I always get telecine and kinescope mixed up. Thanks for that info! So you mean that the actual sound for a given picture is 19 frames away? I wonder how those ARRI cameras that had the built in optical sound recorder worked then since the audio is that far away from the actual image.

I figured unions were the case and that could explain the fire that destroyed the ATO cars. I figure that even if the TTC were to go completely automatic they would still want to have an operator on board for security reasons. It's sad though that a lot of jobs will be lost to it.

Yeah, apparently it took them a while to pay off the CLRVs. Didn't they lease them for years? Something like that. I can't believe those things had completely sealed windows when they were new. Did they really think that was a good idea to have a car with no fans or A/C and sealed windows? If I'm not mistaken, those Grey Line D901s were the first to have A/C but I actually didn't ride an A/C bus until the 91 Orions came in.

That's true. There was also the 1984 "Year of celebration" which I wish I was older to see. It is my understanding that those old backlit street signs were from the centennial as well. I really wish they never got rid of those. They were really unique. Both Toronto and Montreal lost their charm a long long time ago. It's sad.

LMAO. Yeah, I remember thinking how mysterious the RT seemed when I was living in Downsview as a kid. I didn't ride it until 1992 back when they still had 2-car trains. The door chimes, the weird seating pattern, strange starting noise and how fast they seemed to go was a new experience. All that "magic and wonder" died for me during the storm of 99 when day after day they broke down and had to be replaced with Orion IIIs on the 603 shuttle. That's when I started avoiding the line altogether. I haven't ridden the RT in years. Easily since before they change the colours. I just take the bus to STC when I need to go there. It really should never have been built.

4 hours ago, 81-717 said:

That's exactly what I like about them compared to the TR, the R46+, and unfortunately the 81-717 too.

In my opinion the H5/6's had by far the best interior design with the woodgrain and cream, and bright orange/chrome yellow (and also the bright red floor on the H5s). The RT interior never really offered much except the woodgrain, the rest of it was a generic gray/white (plus the standard red seats). The R46 interior is very similar to the H6 even though those cars were built in 1974-1975 like the H4's.

I think the original exterior RT paint scheme wasn't that different from the one used on buses and streetcars.

Agreed, it never fails to disappoint me how/why the bright/warm interior colors like those of the H5/6 became outdated in favor of much more bland schemes like gray/white. Apparently the H5/6 interior style was exclusive to the 1970's, and was already outdated by 1980 (in NYC the R44/46 were the only cars to have it, the R62's and R68's, both built in the 1980's, already didn't have it). On the other hand, a lot of classic 81-717's do have the 1970's interior design, even those built in 1995-2014.

Yeah I liked the H5s when they had the orange seats though. Even the all brown seats. I think putting those red velour seats on those and especially the H6s were hideous. My favourite interior design was the H1s and M1s though. Especially the H1s. They were so dark inside, it had this real mellow atmosphere to them. The old RT seating pattern was a bit inefficient in my opinion because of those single seats at either end. During the storm of 99 there were times where they could only run one train and you wouldn't believe how packed those got. Those were my favourite seats though.

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11 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

The H5 retirement was a bit sad because those are the cars I remember most besides the H1s when I was little. Also because they broke down on the last trip which I didn't attend unfortunately.

TBH the H5 retirement really depresses me. There's no other vehicle that I miss as much as the H5.

11 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

True, the T1s are the last of the old style subway cars that everyone seems to be slowly phasing out in favour of these new gangway subway trains.

Yep, I'll miss the T1's one day because of that. There was a time when they were one of my least favorite cars (when it was just T1's and Hawkers). The H5 retirement would still always be a bigger deal to me though.

11 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

I always thought that the camshaft H cars' front design was reminiscent of NYC's "turtle back" cars with that design at the top.

Interesting, I don't know of any NYC cars (or any others) that would have the unique H1-4 eyebrow pattern, slanted windows, and gates (besides, obviously, the non-cab ends of those Expo cars which are long gone now). The R40 slant cars have a different kind of slant :P

11 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Those H6s in Ankara look interesting. They're like half H6/T1. I wonder if they are AC just like the T1s. It sure is weird seeing those classic TTC rounded windows in another country.

Yeah, apparently they're almost identical to the T1's mechanically, but unlike our H's & T1's, they're configured as 3+3 rather than 2+2+2. And they're also numbered differently, rather than going up by 1 each set goes up by 1000 - here's a  video of #(3001-2001-1001)+(1008-2008-3008).

10 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Yeah I liked the H5s when they had the orange seats though. Even the all brown seats. I think putting those red velour seats on those and especially the H6s were hideous. My favourite interior design was the H1s and M1s though. Especially the H1s. They were so dark inside, it had this real mellow atmosphere to them.

Yeah, I like the H1 interior too, the combination of all cream and the blue-green seats. They would look cool both with or without woodgrain. Maybe it had to do with the interior lighting, but otherwise the H1 interior doesn't look too dark considering they appear to have had the exact same shade of cream as the H5/6's, whose interior always seemed very bright (interesting that unlike the H1/5/6, the H2/4's had a darker shade of tan instead of cream - I always thought the H4 interior seemed somewhat darker because of it). Some of the 81-717.3s in Warsaw (built in 1990) have a fully cream interior similar to the H1 (minus the red seats). The R32 interior is also somewhat similar to the M1/H1.

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23 hours ago, 81-717 said:

TBH the H5 retirement really depresses me. There's no other vehicle that I miss as much as the H5.

Yep, I'll miss the T1's one day because of that. There was a time when they were one of my least favorite cars (when it was just T1's and Hawkers). The H5 retirement would still always be a bigger deal to me though.

Interesting, I don't know of any NYC cars (or any others) that would have the unique H1-4 eyebrow pattern, slanted windows, and gates (besides, obviously, the non-cab ends of those Expo cars which are long gone now). The R40 slant cars have a different kind of slant :P

Yeah, apparently they're almost identical to the T1's mechanically, but unlike our H's & T1's, they're configured as 3+3 rather than 2+2+2. And they're also numbered differently, rather than going up by 1 each set goes up by 1000 - here's a  video of #(3001-2001-1001)+(1008-2008-3008).

Yeah, I like the H1 interior too, the combination of all cream and the blue-green seats. They would look cool both with or without woodgrain. Maybe it had to do with the interior lighting, but otherwise the H1 interior doesn't look too dark considering they appear to have had the exact same shade of cream as the H5/6's, whose interior always seemed very bright (interesting that unlike the H1/5/6, the H2/4's had a darker shade of tan instead of cream - I always thought the H4 interior seemed somewhat darker because of it). Some of the 81-717.3s in Warsaw (built in 1990) have a fully cream interior similar to the H1 (minus the red seats). The R32 interior is also somewhat similar to the M1/H1.

Take a look at the R10, R12 and R14, then have a look at the camshaft cars. Even though ours had smooth rounded roofs, the "eyebrow" pattern follows the same shape as those "turtleback" cars. So, to me at least, on approach it kinda looks like one of those. I don't know of any NYC cars that had indented windows as our did. Those camshaft cars looked older than they really were. The R40s were probably the dumbest design though. Made even worse when they put new gates on them. That's the space-age thing in the 60s going too far to be practical (and safe). LOL

I always liked the T1s and kept track of their delivery. But when they were building the Sheppard line there were times when the entire Y-U-S was T1 like on the weekend. That's the only time I was ever really sick of them.

The H1 interior paint was more on the white side actually. The ceiling was grey though. The floor blue and the seats dark blue and grey. So maybe the grey ceiling made them appear dark but it was probably a combination of that and the state of the fluorescent light fixtures. I remember catching one at Queen's Park that was so dark it looked like it was on emergency lighting. The H4s were the same way until they rebuilt them around 2002. After that they were as bright as the 53xx T1s were at the time.

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10 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

Those camshaft cars looked older than they really were.

I don't think the indented windows on their own are any indication of how old a design looks. Personally I always found it interesting how the H1-4 exterior came out before the H5-T1 did, since the latter design is simpler, and the former is basically a modified, more complex version of the latter, so from a design evolution standpoint it would've made sense if the former came out later based on the latter.

10 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

The H1 interior paint was more on the white side actually. The ceiling was grey though. The floor blue and the seats dark blue and grey.

Interesting, because judging by some photos the H1 interior certainly appears cream (the walls, doors and ceiling), and the floor appears to be light gray (somewhere between that of the T1 and H4).

10 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

The H4s were the same way until they rebuilt them around 2002. After that they were as bright as the 53xx T1s were at the time.

To me the H6 interior always felt brightest, the H5's slightly less so. The H4's and T1's always seemed darker.

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Apparently Gander, Newfoundland was considered an emergency landing airport for the Space Shuttle. It would have been interesting had a shuttle needed to land in Gander if the locals would offer to have the astronauts kiss a fish. (If you've seen Come From Away, you'd understand).

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On 1/22/2020 at 9:29 PM, 81-717 said:

I don't think the indented windows on their own are any indication of how old a design looks. Personally I always found it interesting how the H1-4 exterior came out before the H5-T1 did, since the latter design is simpler, and the former is basically a modified, more complex version of the latter, so from a design evolution standpoint it would've made sense if the former came out later based on the latter.

Interesting, because judging by some photos the H1 interior certainly appears cream (the walls, doors and ceiling), and the floor appears to be light gray (somewhere between that of the T1 and H4).

To me the H6 interior always felt brightest, the H5's slightly less so. The H4's and T1's always seemed darker.

1. That would be my opinion actually.

2. Nope. The H1 walls are white while the H2's and 4s are more of an off-white cream colour. I have closeup number shots of both to prove this.

3. Agree. That coupled with the orange, white and brown and then later on the red velour must have been designed to break your spirit on the way to work. Can't believe I used to prefer those cars to all else because of that when I was a kid.¬†ūüėā

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2 hours ago, Downsview 108 said:

1. That would be my opinion actually.

2. Nope. The H1 walls are white while the H2's and 4s are more of an off-white cream colour. I have closeup number shots of both to prove this.

3. Agree. That coupled with the orange, white and brown and then later on the red velour must have been designed to break your spirit on the way to work. Can't believe I used to prefer those cars to all else because of that when I was a kid.¬†ūüėā

I guess it depends what one considers "white" (I remember wikipedia saying the H6s had "white" floors ūüėā). On the H5/6 (especially the H5 from what I remember), the lighting under the AC units at the ends of the cars was brighter than the rest, thus making the cream paint in that area appear whiter, whereas throughout the rest of the car it was noticeably yellower. I disagree however that the interior design was "designed to break your spirit on the way to work", I'd argue the complete opposite, since I find it to be a lot more appealing and uplifting than most others I've seen. If anything it's a lot (but not all) modern designs that are more likely to make one's daily commute to school/work boring and depressing (as a lot of people view commuting).

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On 1/31/2020 at 11:52 AM, 81-717 said:

I guess it depends what one considers "white" (I remember wikipedia saying the H6s had "white" floors ūüėā). On the H5/6 (especially the H5 from what I remember), the lighting under the AC units at the ends of the cars was brighter than the rest, thus making the cream paint in that area appear whiter, whereas throughout the rest of the car it was noticeably yellower. I disagree however that the interior design was "designed to break your spirit on the way to work", I'd argue the complete opposite, since I find it to be a lot more appealing and uplifting than most others I've seen. If anything it's a lot (but not all) modern designs that are more likely to make one's daily commute to school/work boring and depressing (as a lot of people view commuting).

That's true. These newer vehicles just don't have the "soul" the older ones have. Plasticware for a plastic age.

Here's the number shots. I see what you're saying. The H1 "white" wasn't snow white but it wasn't as "off white" as the H4 paint. The H1s were definitely the darkest inside (besides the Gloucesters). So dark that it was very difficult to take photos without flash in them. hell, even if you had flash it was still hard.

IMG_20200205_120626.jpg

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