Mark Walton Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Here's link. Comments may or may not be accessible; some commenters referred to trolleys. City's mass transit vision a bold one, but it's no smooth ride for planners Opponents want practicality, not 'social engineering' By Paula Simons, Edmonton Journal November 10, 2009 Edmonton's incomplete LRT system may not move people around as well as it should. But that didn't stop hundreds of them from cramming city council chambers on Monday to take part in, or watch, the first day of public debate on the future of light-rail transit. It was standing room only, even after extra chairs were brought in. The decision facing city council will redefine our city. City planners have placed a revolutionary new vision for rapid transit before council. Instead of extending our current light-rail system with spur lines, planners are recommending that council opt instead for entirely new technology-for light, relatively quiet low-floor vehicles, more like trams or streetcars than our current trains. The proposed new 25-kilometre line, which would run from Lewis Estates in the west to Millwoods in the southeast, wouldn't be the shortest route, or the cheapest one-but city planners argue it would be the route best designed to encourage infill redevelopment and revitalize mature neighbourhoods, a route that would make the downtown, and not the University of Alberta, the city's transportation hub. The goal would be to create an urban rail system, not one designed to whisk suburbanites to the city core underground but one that would encourage people to get off and on the train to shop, dine, or run errands. It's a grand vision -one that some of those Edmontonians who showed up to speak at the hearing just weren't buying. David Jolly lives in Rio Terrace in west Edmonton and works on the Uof A campus. What he wants, he told council, is a route that gets him to and from work as quickly and directly as possible. The city, he said, should focus on practicalities, not "social engineering." To him, all the bold talk about using the LRT to encourage urban density and human-scale development was nothing but "pompous twaddle." Others had more specific concerns -about where their customers would park, about how they would back out of their driveways, about whether the route up through Cloverdale would close down the Edmonton Ski Club, hinder the Edmonton Folk Music Festival, or about how the snow would be plowed. Ron Cherlet, who lives in Cloverdale, called on council to postpone LRT plans, for at least a year, pending more public consultation. But while those who spoke in opposition to the new route outnumbered supporters two-to-one, council also heard from some two dozen people who spoke passionately in favour of the new route, residents and business people from Lynnwood and Meadowlark, Strathearn and Canora, Millwoods and Grovenor and West Jasper Place. Public hearings usually attract plenty of NIMBY sentiment, since people are far more likely to show up to city council to complain than commend. These were the YIMBYs, the people who were actually saying, "Yes, in my backyard!" They were the ones urging council to make up its mind quickly. "Please, do not delay your decision," pleaded Irene Blain of the West Jasper Place Revitalization Building Committee, who argued that running this new-style tram system down Stony Plain Road could turn the rundown strip into a showcase for the city. "We think this is a super system and a sensitive system for mature neighbourhoods and redevelopment," said David Kent, the developer behind the Strathearn Heights infill project. For council, this is not going to be an easy decision. Nor should it be. The choice they make will chart the direction for this city's future development, for good or for ill. And there's probably no route they could chose that would make everybody happy. No matter where the train runs, somebody will be inconvenienced, somebody's ox will be gored. But this decision is bigger than one business, one house, even one neighbourhood. It's about a philosophical shift, a move toward using transit not merely to move people from point A to point B but to spur urban renewal. And it's also about planning for the future. Grant MacEwan University is growing. And while it's far too early to know whether Darryl Katz's dream-arena plan will go ahead, if it does come to pass, it will be vital to have an LRT line running straight from West Edmonton Mall to the new arena site. West Edmonton community activist Andrew Knack, who's planning his own run for city council next fall, put it bluntly to the current councillors. "No matter which route they chose, many people will be angry. "Consensus is not possible." But just because a decision won't' be easy, he said, that doesn't mean council should give up on LRT. He's absolutely right. It's time for us, as a city, to put our mass transit plans back on track. The route proposed by city planners isn't perfect -there may need to be some tweaking in response to legitimate community concern. Yet despite the disruption and inconvenience the route will mean for some, this is a plan that offers a bold, fresh vision for LRT in Edmonton. It's time for council to get on-board -before Edmonton is left behind on the platform once again. psimons@thejournal.canwest.com twitter.com/Paulatics © Copyright © The Edmonton Journal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awstott Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 mohammadNovember 10, 2009 - 2:02 PM Flag this as Inappropriate What amazes me is that a Campain Contribution minority of people on 87th avenue by the Zoo can dictate city policy. The only city study that showed Stonly Plain road was one of social engineering and potential development The city studies all agree that the shortest route is 87th avenue The city studies all agree that the the cheapest cost is down 87th avenue The city studies all algree that the highest ridership potential is 87th avenue and this can be further proved by the proposed "premium tranist" service being planned to run from west edmonton mall down the whitemud to the university, EXACTLY where an 87th avenue alignment would serve, so why the added cost of yet another form of public transit when 87th avenue would handle that service, why the duplicate service? ONLY those people on that particular stretch of 87th avenue have had their concerns about crime property values noise etc. listened too. NO OTHER areas has been given that consideration, why not? Oh, we have to build a bridge, so what, how does the se line or the exisiting line get across the river, by transporter??? Let us not forget that the new streetcars and the new premium bus service will require new and different equipment to purchase, overhead lines, steel rails, maintainence, train and facilaties etc. WHY the extra types of equipment when ETS rid the city of the trolley bus because they were not part of a consistant fleet type, extra training, costs, overhead lines etc.? Never mind that a new trolley bus is able to operate off line for a while while a streetcar is stuck on the rails, plus the extras steel wheel on steel rail nosie on those tight corners, PLUS the reports all peg maintence costs as higher for the new streetcars. Why does ETS want to install a new streetcar line with overhead lines, coal powered electricity, steel wheel on steel rails in the roadways that runs at 20kph (current system about 40 and that is already too slow compared to other cities), why replace the existing sytem, it works in Calgary, San Diego, Denver, to name but 3, but cannot work here, the problem is the operator, NOT the system itself. Time to fire people at ETS until they get it right. Let us talk about development along the line, look how well that worked around the coluseum, and belvedere. But Stony Plain road is depressed and it will work there. SO why did it not work at the coluseum, it too was and still is depressed. Do you trust these folks with anything they say? Let us talk about the great idea of 2 lanes of traffic down Stonly Plain road into downtown. IF this is such a great idea, why not do that now, bus lane a lane in each direction, and make it one lane each way right now, before the election, show us how great it will be. That is my challenge, do it now all the way for Jasper Place to Downtown, show us the benefits, as the buses can use the bus lane while we wiat for your street cars to arrive. As for Bob Boutiellier, no wonder he is no longer in Toronto, "the decision has been made", really Bob, like how you tried to scrap streetcars in Toronto? How did that work out for you? Since when dids ETS become part of social engineering, no wonder it's a crappy system, run the buses, that is all they have to do , that is all they are meant to be doing. There is an election in October 2010 Bob and council, do not be surprised to see some changes, and with that, NOTHING has been decided until the people speak and are heard I agree with this poster!!! Do the bus lanes all the way downtown and see what it does to Stony Plain Rd businesses... This city drives me nuts sometimes... everything is done so ass backwards and accommodates whoever gives the politicians the perks. They're all just a bunch of crooks - it's sick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madsad Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 //begin rant I am getting so sick and f***ing tired of this 'social engineering' crap. The past 60 years of taking everything we knew about building cities for people, and throwing that in the garbage, replacing it which building cities for cars and suburban tract housing, is the largest, and most despicable form of social engineering in human history. Yes, walkable communities and transit-oriented development should be considered 'social engineering'. It is also payback, and we are going to cash in on what car culture owes us, plus interest. //end rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esturk Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Wow, really saving a lot of money here by replacing the trolleys with streetcars.. Time for new trolleys while there's still wire up haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulator Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 From Don Iveson's blog, a concept map of the LRT in the year 35984854587487 prepared by the city's transportation consultant du jour: http://www.doniveson.ca/wp-content/uploads...-Network_A1.jpg A few things of note: -Usual comments about spelling mistakes e.g. "Quaters" "Claireview" "White Mud Drive." -Apparently going to Gorman in the NE is no longer important, but a station at Alberta Hospital is... -In the west, the line actually seems to stop short of Lewis Estates -An infill station is supposed to be put in around Harry Ainley after all -Why is Health Sciences a terminal for one of the north lines? -How are low floor trains supposed to get from the High Level Bridge to University Station? -Has anyone thought about the logistics of the interlining arrangement through Downtown/University? We have six routes in various combinations: W to SE via Downtown, W to E via University, etc., etc. I agree with madsad that the charges of 'social engineering' are bogus. Edmonton long-awaited acknowledgment that transportation and land-use are linked (which has of course, once acknowledged, led to minimal actual policy change) is welcome. But this LRT scheme is very strange. A major change in design and purpose has been made with no justification except a picture from Dublin and a few nice renderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board Admin A. Wong Posted November 19, 2009 Board Admin Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 To get to Alberta Hospital, you need to pass Gorman... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modulator Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 To get to Alberta Hospital, you need to pass Gorman... Ah, mea culpa. So either the "151 Ave" or "Evergreen" stations is actually in Gormanland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Ah, mea culpa. So either the "151 Ave" or "Evergreen" stations is actually in Gormanland? Ill take an Evergreen Station! It would serve over 1500 residents with a possible 1000+ more in the near future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madsad Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I agree with madsad that the charges of 'social engineering' are bogus. Thanks, Mod. What gets me is that these accusations of (supposedly socialistic) social engineering are made by proponents of sprawl development and its concomitant suburban "lifestyle", which is, you guessed it, a form of social engineering! Its like this: Apple (free market "thinkers" and suburban developers): Hey, Orange! Orange (New Urbanists and progressives): what?! what do you want? Apple: you're a fruit! Orange: ... huh? Ok... It's like...what kind of argument is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Board Admin A. Wong Posted November 20, 2009 Board Admin Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Ah, mea culpa. So either the "151 Ave" or "Evergreen" stations is actually in Gormanland? The 151 Ave is in Gormanland ish... but according to this "Clareview to Gorman Preliminary Engineering" newsletter I have, dated October 2009, it says "An LRT station and Transit Centre at Gorman, north of 153 Avenue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Parsons Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 -How are low floor trains supposed to get from the High Level Bridge to University Station?But this LRT scheme is very strange. A major change in design and purpose has been made with no justification except a picture from Dublin and a few nice renderings. It would seem with this map they intend to rebuild the existing LRT into their "urban LRT" crap. What pisses me off is that we even paid an consultant to come up with this turd. We could have given Chucky or Bob some crayons and a blank map and ended up with the same damn thing. Why do we keep spending money on dreams, instead of actually building something? I like the station names for the NAIT/ NW line, and Sherwood Park line. I'm sure you're being paid enough, you could have come up with some station names. Still resistant for a line down 87 Ave I see. Still doomed to forever have to go through Downtown first. And apparently no one could dream up a line down 97 St which has got to be one of the busier corridors in the city. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Marriott Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Plus, following the rail corridor, trains would hit Alberta Hospital before they hit Evergreen. Naturally, this order is reversed on the map. From Don Iveson's blog, a concept map of the LRT in the year 35984854587487 prepared by the city's transportation consultant du jour:http://www.doniveson.ca/wp-content/uploads...-Network_A1.jpg A few things of note: -Usual comments about spelling mistakes e.g. "Quaters" "Claireview" "White Mud Drive." -Apparently going to Gorman in the NE is no longer important, but a station at Alberta Hospital is... -In the west, the line actually seems to stop short of Lewis Estates -An infill station is supposed to be put in around Harry Ainley after all -Why is Health Sciences a terminal for one of the north lines? -How are low floor trains supposed to get from the High Level Bridge to University Station? -Has anyone thought about the logistics of the interlining arrangement through Downtown/University? We have six routes in various combinations: W to SE via Downtown, W to E via University, etc., etc. I agree with madsad that the charges of 'social engineering' are bogus. Edmonton long-awaited acknowledgment that transportation and land-use are linked (which has of course, once acknowledged, led to minimal actual policy change) is welcome. But this LRT scheme is very strange. A major change in design and purpose has been made with no justification except a picture from Dublin and a few nice renderings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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