Ed T.

I'm seeing fewer 7300s out in rush hour. Meantime Queensway gets more 7900s as Arrow (?) gets more new Novas. Do we need to start a retirement thread for the NF-LFs?

Now that most of them don't have stop announcements that hurt the ears, I like riding them. Like the Orion Vs, they have white walls and ceilings, unlike the ugly dollar-store-plastic grey of everything else the TTC operates (with the exception of the TR sets).

I should go out and get to read that book, I've heard some good things about it.

My reading is that he almost quit as an operator due to verbal abuse, and the stress of shift work helped end his marriage. Those would be the two big things to look out for.

You might want to read Get Onboard by Richard Lee. He describes what it's like to be a TTC operator, both from his experience and statements from other operators. What I get from the book is that there's a lot of verbal abuse, and some spitting or coffee-throwing, but serious physical violence (with knives or whatever) is rare, probably as likely on the TTC as anywhere else (like the King/Yonge Shopper's Drug Mart). The library has 15 copies, but 30+ holds: http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/detail.jsp?Entt=RDM3341511&R=3341511

I am not an operator, but I've been on TTC vehicles for thousands of hours, and at various locations and times of the day. There's a good share of crazy people on the TTC, particularly on the Queen car. There was one night when someone paced up and down the streetcar on Queen, maybe high on crystal meth or something. It was worrisome, but nothing came of it.

The Sammy Yatim case is a big deal because it's not the ordinary way of things.

Probably not. And you can tap out and tap in as well - I've inadvertently done this at Union, when I tapped out of GO, to catch a streetcar to the Ex, because it was 30 minutes until the next GO train. But there was a TTC problem, and I realized it was quicker to take that GO train 30 minutes later, so I tapped back in again - with no extra charge to ride to Exhibition.

Actually, if you look at the GO Fare calculator, a Presto trip from Union to Port Credit is $5.72. But if you transfer at Mimico it's only $5.27 - a savings of 45¢

The logic of the pricing of GO transfers has never quite made sense to me (or anyone as far as I know!)

So make sure you tap-in and tap-out when you stop at Mimico for a beer!

The transfer section of the fare calculator says that this is for transfers between buses or trains and buses. But it allows a transfer between trains at a station (Mimico) where there is only one route. I think that's not what was intended.

Anyway, I'd worry that at some point obviously my Union-to-Long-Branch-"transferring"-at-Mimico trip becomes two trips, Union-Mimico and Mimico-Long Branch, which would be almost twice as much as Union-Long Branch.

As as larger note, the GO system is easy-peasy for transfers, compared to the TTC. If the transfer implementation is wonky on GO, I think it will be impossible to implement for TTC's current transfer policy. There will be so many issues, they'll have to default back to a timed fare, which is extremely simple to set up.

There's nothing that prevents anyone from taking a transfer, getting off and getting on the next streetcar from the rear doors after stopping by to pick up a coffee. Is it technically allowed, probably not. Is it noticeable? Unless the inspector reads the serial number on the transfer, you should be fine.

At this point, I think the inspectors care more about people paying their fare than these small things.

If I read GO fare regulations correctly, you could do the same on the GO train. Hop off at Mimico, have a pint at the Blue Goose, hop back on the next train. There's a certain length of time a single ticket is good for; there's nothing that indicates that you must take the first possible departure after purchasing your fare. At least, nothing I can see. The only way you'd get caught is being inspected at the stopover station itself.

Let us know when you know the list of stops for the 185.

The 139 never performed well. Sheppard-Yonge didn't developed like it suppose to. There isn't much sense for anyone to take the 139. I don't think it will happen yet, but I could be wrong.

The 139 is an alternative route for Seneca students, if Finch Ave is backed up, or if the trains are stacked up in the tunnels northbound to Finch station. But I don't think anyone really knew about it. When I was heading home in the afternoon, I'd never see one.

I've finished reading Get On Board: Walk in the Shoes of a Transit Operator. It's available from the library (you'd need to put a hold on it--43 holds on 15 copies). Anyone here read it? Particularly operators? I'm curious what other people think of this.

It would be interesting to know how long is this "temporary" period. They could change it in the March 27 board when they can schedule more cars.

I would assume that they'll keep some cars on Lake Shore only with a mix of cars that will head downtown like the late evening period. The 501 is prone to unforeseen events and congestion. It they really want to improve service on Lake Shore, they should overlap the 501 on top of the "507". Otherwise they'll end up with the same mess in case of a detour.

Temporary until the streetcar fleet is big enough, so ask Bombardier. To quote from today's email from the local councillor Mark Grimes,

I spoke with the Chief Service Officer this morning. He has confirmed that this route split at the Humber Loop is temporary. The increased streetcar frequency with the adjusted route schedule requires more cars than are currently available for the entire Long Branch-Neville Park route. As I’m sure you’ve heard on the news, there has been a significant delay in the delivery of the TTC new streetcars. We need these new cars to be able to fill those gaps. He also agreed that the route schedule does need some tweaking. It is not their intentions to leave people waiting at the loop in the dark so they will look at ways to adjust the timing to provide the equal service on the western portion of the route that was promised.

I assume the real problem is that there aren't enough ALRVs to go around. So Neville-Humber gets ALRVs, while Humber-Long Branch gets CLRVs, at good headways.

The Etobicoke Guardian is quoting Brad Ross saying the 501 route split at Humber loop is actually temporary until .... permanent. They will tweak it as necessary until the split is required to maintain 10 min. on Lake Shore.

I'm with South Etobicoke Transit Action Committee (SETAC.ca) and we've just been assured by a senior planner at the TTC that the split is temporary. Given the choice of who might be most up-to-date, I'll go with this person, rather than Brad Ross.

They definitely need to add a vehicle or two to the schedule, since there's times when its not uncommon to see 20 min gaps. Additionally, they still find ways to short-turn vehicles at Kipling (which goes to prove that the TTC's BS reasoning that traffic causes delays to service is flawed beyond belief).

As for the service issues along Humber Bay, let's just say that its only going to get worse before it gets better (if ever). The only hope for that community is a GO station and increase service on the LSW line. Asides from that, nothing is really going to help them. Ironically, Humber Bay is what's causing some of the issues during peak periods.

GO service may help, but there's a surprising number of people in those condos who ride either to West Queen West or to Humber College. Better local transit is a necessity.

I haven't spotted any cars at Kipling loop, but it doesn't surprise me that this happens. Heck, it happened back in the days of PCCs on "LONG BRANCH LONG BRANCH"..

TTC should also keep a couple of gap cars at Humber Loop that can be used for both the 501 and 507. They should add more storage tracks if they really plan to keep this arrangement permanent.

No place to put them without blocking through service.

What is the formal difference between an express route and a "rocket" route? Jane gets a rocket, but Keele and Kipling stick with "E" branches.

Was the York University 106A the first regular schedule express route? (To distinguish from Exhibition expresses, racetrack expresses, and such.)

Pity the 7000s and 9400s didn't stick around for the extended Finch express routes.

7571 talking to itself on a 70/22 run last night....

Those are cool pictures, thanks for finding them! Interesting that the doors had non-opening windows. As soon as the doors go, the square windows are openable (until the 7500s anyway). It could well have been a 2900 I rode, though by the time I was paying attention they were scarce and maybe not running out of Wilson. I seem to recall that there was a (single) seat by the door. The green light is a non-specific memory.

Generally, it's too bad that so many pictures are front right-side views. We miss the taillights, and whatever is happening on the closed side. Also pictures of interiors--harder to get nowadays I suppose. I have some blurred interior photos of the 7000 series Orions from the last days, but they're not very good. Much nicer looking interiors than today's dollar-store-tupperware grey.

As for the numbering, maybe there was a master plan for other types of vehicles to inhabit the even hundreds, though it's hard to guess what those may have been. Only the odd hundreds were used for the 7000 range of buses. This ended (gloriously?) with 8000, a Flyer D-800.

Speaking of early New Looks, did TTC buses have an emergency exit door across from the rear doors? Also, was there ever a seat across from the rear doors?

I seem to recall that there was a green light or something on a 3100 I rode once, and possibly a door back there. Not sure what I'm remembering, though; it's been a long time.

As posted on another group, from the Scott Richards collection, TTC 7541 new in front of University College on the UofT St. George campus in July of 1972.

Notice rear tail lights

Were those also the last buses to come with the railway-style fleet numbers?

Is it likely to ever see a Swiss-built streetcar on the Lake Shore section of 501? I get the impression that Russel has 4000-4099 and Roncesvalles has 4100-4199, and it would seem unlikely that Russel would dispatch the "507" runs.

It would be nice to see one of the original cars back on the routing that first introduced them (and CLRVs). In the past few years I think I've seen Swiss cars on through 501 runs maybe three or four times, but it's rare.

On the topic of TTC New Looks, I recall as a child New Looks rolling down Pharmacy that had identical tailgates as the 5307's but with one spotting difference, the rear turn/stop indicators jutted out slightly more than normal. Being an avid bus spotter at an early age I only recall seeing them a couple of times. It appears these buses were late model 5305's (correct me if wrong) Most photos that exist of TTC 5305's are front views. not a rear views of these buses if any exist to confirm what I saw as kid.

Yes, those were the 7523-7552 buses.

I rode those buses, and the lighting switch was at the same time as the standee windows went away. Probably the new style lighting and lit ads caused the disappearance of the standee windows.

The M1 subway cars had strip lighting like the older GMs, but the H1 cars introduced ad lighting, and they were being manufactured by 1965. So it may well be that the TTC decided that it would be so spiffy to have all its new vehicles to be that modern.

The new cars can push/tow another new car out of any tunnel and hills. The ALRVs weight less than the new cars.

The problem with ALRVs is that they derail if pushed around Union loop. So probably won't be seeing ALRVs beyond Queens Quay loop.

Jan 4 AM: 4242 on 510. As indicated last week, starting Jan 4 only M1 and L3 class cars will operate on 510 route.

Aren't those Brill Witts and Large ('normal') Witts? Looking forward to some gear whine on Spadina!

According to the serial numbers, 3560-74 were serials C288-C302, and 3575-99 were serials C307-C331, all delivered in 1965. In between (C303-C306) were two buses to each of Lethbridge, AB and Autobus Yvan Levis (Laval, QC).

As an older member, I can recall the split point re the standee windows based on personal observation, but perhaps another Board member can confirm this.

You know, I think you're right, but, like you, it was personal observation and memories from 35 years back. I had a very Wilson-centric view of buses, since I was riding the 106/106A daily. Wilson's 3500s mostly ran on 29 Dufferin, but they did show up on 106 in peak times. I also recall 3300s and a 3100 that must have been weeks away from retirement showing up circa 1980.

Those shadows along the ceiling centre line are from the original florescent tubes (I'll see what I have in archives, but don't think I was shooting the ceilings...)

Lighting moved to the ad's at a later date.

Nope, all post-standee buses had ad lighting as I recall. This may have been some one-off I guess.

lol

thats a problem on ALL our lines.

i never figurem out why we havent had any safety blitzswith police officers handing on tickets to drivers blowing through streetcar doors

sadly, this would only happen if a high number of people are killed.

It's especially a problem on Lake Shore because:

1. The lane to the right of the streetcar is a through lane all the way from Park Lawn to Brown's Line
2. Speeds are faster (905ers taking a shortcut home)
3. Drivers are more ignorant (905ers who don't otherwise encounter streetcars)

The worst place I know of on the rest of the system is eastbound at Shaw and westbound at Ossington. Drivers seem to think that it's fine to drive past the streetcar in the right turn lane because, hey, the streetcar is one lane over.

What about the transfers from low-floor buses to the high-floor streetcars? We have 80 Queensway and 66 Prince Edward, which have low-floor buses, transferring to 501 Queen already. Not to mention the buses intersecting all along Queen Street.

There are not nearly enough accessible stations on the Bloor-Danforth line, unless the hypothetical wheelchair users make do with Wellesley or Dupon buses to get crosstown. If you're on B-D in a wheelchair and want to travel down to the 501, your choices are Kipling (44, 123), Spadina (510), Spadina/St George (University line to St. Andrew), Pape (72) or Main (64).

This could actually work for the pseudo-507, at least at the west end since the 44 is a frequent connection to the subway (123, not so frequent). 80 and 66, of course, go to inaccessible stations. Well, I wonder how a wheelchair user would transfer between buses and streetcars at Long Branch loop. Good luck getting off the streetcar, since you're dumped onto poor pavement with tracks. And I'm not sure how easy it is to get between the bus "platform" and the streetcar platform, since the shelter takes up most of the walkway.

Low floor cars would be nice on the "507" as there are a number of seniors that would like to get around Lake Shore. There are a number of shops along the street so there will be local demand.

As for wheelchairs, I have safety concerns around deploying the ramp on a wide light traffic road. Many people pass open streetcar doors and with these Flexity, it could get worst.

I guess we need armoured streetcar ramps. Cars passing open streetcar doors are always a problem on Lake Shore.

Standee windows on the GM newlooks ended at 3574.

Wiki has 3560-3599 all as one series. Something's wrong somewhere.

Thank you Robert and Ed for the critique and information. How good is your memory about the interior design of the GMs?

As far as I've been able to tell, the light green scheme with the black and pink seats came about in the mid-60s and lasted until the late 70s when the TTC began exploring various seat designs. Since then, the interiors were off-white and brown. Not sure what the very early GMs were like.

Related to that: the D800 that was owned by a production company had seats with alternating orange and brown inserts. Was this on any other TTC bus?

Interior shots of TTC 3722 from gmbus.com:

I wonder what that was along the middle of the ceiling? Won't be the lights, since these buses had the large lit advertising holders on either side.

Reply to post #350.

I don't recall seeing any multi-coloured seats on any GM buses. The green interior lasted I think up until the 8160-8204 order, then the 8270-8314 was the first with the brown interior and it was the order with the stainless framed seats.

The early GMs had a metallic pink colour for the interior, which changed to the green somewhere at either the 3300s or 3500s. We'd have to look for open door pictures of those series. I think the Starburst ceiling pattern was from the very beginning up until the brown interiors when it went to the gold speckles. If anyone can confirm any of these or correct my memories, please do.

The interior colour scheme changes when the GM buses switched from the standee windows, I think that's at 3560, but it could be at 3524. Maybe someone who knows could update the wiki which doesn't say much. I believe that even the starburst pattern on the "pink" buses was a different colour, more in the pink (which was definitely on the beige end of pink) tone? That earlier colour scheme had seat backs all one colour, which was a grey. The later buses had the orange-red upper part of the seats, as seen on some of the seats in the 3722 interior. I don't know if the solid grey seats in that bus are from an earlier bus or just reupholstered more simply. I do find it interesting that the shape of the handgrabs on the seats are different shapes too.

The upholstered interiors stopped in two steps. 8270-8314 had the beige fibreglass buckets with brown upholstery inserts, pretty much like all the later TTC buses until the Novas. (This series also had bright yellow oversize unit numbers on the back of the signboard; I quite liked those.) Then 8320-8369 had CLRV style metal seats with brown padding. I don't really recall other interior colour scheme details on these, but I imagine that's where the brown doors started.

The Flyers were always a bit gaudier than the GMs for upholstery. Their orange upholstery was a lot more orange. It would not surprise me to see some odd schemes in those buses.

Aren't the 501, 509/511 and 510 changes starting Sunday?

You're right. I should try to get some pics of 501 NEVILLE PARK ALRVs pulling out of Long Branch loop while I have a chance! Alas, it's the gloomy end of December with little or no sunshine until next week.

Official words appeared a month ago. The service summary, Steve Munro's post, board meeting presentation all mention this. I'm surprised that you found out just now.

It's going to be a surprise to riders who aren't transit geeks. I haven't seen a single notice on a pole. Lots of people Monday morning at stops on Lake Shore not wanting to get on a 501 HUMBER car....