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V3112

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  1. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I feel honoured to have helped you keep your mind sharp during what I'm sure must be a tough time for you. I wish you the best, and hope you get better soon. Returning to buses... The 6 and 16 had a shared interline corridor with the 12-E Cherry and 12-Judkins Park branches. The 16 also went all the way up Meridian to 145th. At a later date, the 6 (which ran on 5th Ave N) instead looped via 5th, Union, 3rd, Cedar, return onto 5th Ave N. Later still, this was changed again to Aurora instead of 5th Ave N, and using 3rd in both directions downtown (with a timing point at 3rd Ave S & S Washington). When was the 16 truncated to Northgate TC? Which routes replaced bus service on Meridian north of Northgate? When did the 6 get moved onto Aurora/3rd through SLU/Downtown? When did the 6/12/16 interline corridor get replaced with 12N/12S, 16/21, and 6 by itself? The 15 and 18 each had one Ballard branch, and two West Seattle branches. The 15 had a shared corridor on Admiral Way SW, as far as SW 49th St, then split. It would then either take the current-day 57X routing to the Junction, or continue to 63rd Ave SW, Beach Dr SW, north on 48th Ave SW to the Junction. Meanwhile the 18 would route via Avalon, Fauntleroy Way to the Junction, then continue south on California as far as SW Morgan. From Morgan Junction it would either continue to the Fauntleroy Ferry Terminal, or to 41st & SW Ida. What were the operation patterns and frequencies for the 15/18 in the STS days? Were there any night shuttles? When did the 49 (Genesee-Gatewood) get split into the 22 Gatewood and 23 Genesee? When was the 23 absorbed by the 56? How did service patterns change? (I only know that before the 56/57X split in 9/98, the 56 would alternate on the Admiral Way branch and the Genesee Hill branch, with each branch getting hourly service.) What were the service patterns and routings for the 15F and 18F Flyer routes? Which routes replaced 15F/18F? When did the 18 Fauntleroy branch turn into the 54 and get extended to White Center? This question is somewhat related. In the STS days, the 37 ran down the Viaduct, old West Seattle Bridge, 26th SW, Harbor/Alki Ave, Admiral, California, Hanford, 37th, Manning, 35th to the Junction. When did the 37 take over the 15's routing on Beach Dr SW? Also somewhat related, what were the 5's interlines in the STS days, before the modern 5/54/55 interline corridor was established? Some more questions: When was the MLK restructure? (The one that telescoped the hourly 42/142 service into half-hourly 42 + shared 106/107 corridor)? Did the 42 start running down Renton Ave S all day at the same time? And did the 48 get its alternating half-hourly service down MLK (to either Henderson or 38th & S Genesee, plus evening trips to MLK/Walden only) at this time, or in 1978? When did the 31 Beacon/Seward Park and southern part of the 1-Ferdinand get telescoped into the new 36? When were trolley wires extended from S Ferdinand to S Dawson? In the STS days, what was the 39's interline? Did the 23 South Seattle and 32 South Park both run hourly, interlining with half hourly 17 trips? Did STS-era 130/132 ever interline with the 17, or STS-era 136/137 with the 19? What was the 20's interline in the STS days, before the 11-20 interline corridor? When was the Dumar/16th routing discontinued? What use did the 7's loops at S Graham St, S Rose St and S Fletcher St get? Which route did the 28 interline with in the STS days, and when was the interline pair changed to 56?
  2. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Expanding on Roamer's anecdote about the Ballard-West Seattle transit corridor on 1st Avenue: Between the Sept 2001 changes and RapidRide C/D launch, the following pattern was in effect. Until 6:30 pm Mon-Sat, Routes 15 and 18 ran every 20 minutes each, for a combined 10 minute headway between 15th & Leary (north approach to the Ballard Bridge) all the way into downtown Seattle. For each of the 3tph on Routes 15 or 18, 1tph continued as Route 21, 1tph continued as Route 22, and the third trip continued as Route 56. Both Ballard routes cycled through the three West Seattle routes 20 minute intervals. On weekdays during PM peak only, inbound 15/18 trips that would have normally continued to Route 56, continued to Route 57X instead. (In the opposite direction, during AM peak, Route 57X ran via 4th Avenue to 7th & Blanchard, instead of interlining.) After 8:00 pm or so, Route 15 would loop through Blue Ridge then have an extended wait at 15th & 85th, while Route 18 do the same at 24th & 85th after looping through North Beach. This was not uncommon among urban routes, the 7 started doing this in 2001 (doubling back to the Henderson St loop from Prentice St during evenings), this was also present on the 21 All other times, including all day Sundays, Route 15 ran every 30 minutes and interlined with Route 21 only; Route 18 ran every 30 minutes and interlined with Route 56 only. Route 22 trips live-looped downtown. Express trips continued to 2nd & S Main St then deadheaded to Central Base, and vice versa. I'm not sure what the pre-1998 West Seattle-Ballard interline pattern was, especially with the pesky 15 Night Shuttle complicating things. This was back when Route 28's interline was with Route 56 instead of the 39 (and when Genesee Hill service was an hourly branch of the 56), so I'm guessing most 15/18 trips live-looped downtown because the only other interline was with Route 22. But then again I don't know if the 15/18 ran every 20 minutes before 1998, either. I'm going to read over the later posts because there's a lot more I want to say
  3. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    If the 135 ran out of South Base, that would explain why it didn't get any interlines, while the 125 (which ran out of Central) did. It would also explain why the 174 (which also ran out of South Base) terminated near CPS instead of interlining. Well, that and it was a "horrifically long and slow route" as you might call it. I'm going by the assumption that the 139 used 30' Gilligs out of South Base, and that the 11 was also moved from Ryerson to Central in 2004. As for 631 (and 635 as a matter of fact), I don't know whether Hopelink vans get their own separate base, or such vans continue to run out of South Base. Was the 128 placed at Ryerson or South when it started in 1998? Apparently one of the Magnolia routes used to interline with the old 31 Beacon Hill? Roamer, you may know about this
  4. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Shows how much I know; I always thought the 20/120 ran out of Central. How about the other West Seattle and Highline routes (pre-1998 50, 128, 135/138, 139, 631 DART)? Central, Ryerson, South? When was the 120 moved from Ryerson to Atlantic? Photo from Zack Willhoite of a 3200 on the 174 is attached. And that brings up another question. What were the buses used in the pre-Gillig era at North and East? For some reason I don't know. Furthermore, how did Bredas end up on a non-tunnel route? I thought they were exclusively for tunnel routes. Were Central/Mercer/Jefferson the original Seattle Transit bases? And when did Atlantic stop being a trolley-only garage, and get diesels?
  5. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    The early 90s version of The Book shows a layover routing via Virginia instead of Blanchard, and skips Westlake. When did this change occur? 174_Jun1987.pdf
  6. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I saw the term CPS and my mind immediately went to Child Protective Services instead of Convention Place Station...of course, doy. The 174 didn't move into the tunnel until it reopened in 2007, I thought? The "classical routing" as I understood it was North on 4th, east on Virginia, south on 9th to the layover point NS Stewart (across from where the Seattle Children's building is). Returning to S Federal Way P&R via west on Stewart (the first stop was on the farside of the intersection, where 818 Stewart is located now), south on 2nd to reach 4th Ave S. While yes, the 174 was well-aligned with the AcRd to Convention Place, I don't think it ever ran in the tunnel until 2007. It was always via 2nd/4th using 1400s, 2000s and later 2300s (did 3000s/3200s ever see service on the 174? Not sure) Now the 194 to my knowledge has always been a tunnel route. What a bummer. How long have 2300s been running on the 120/125? It feels like decades now. Does Metro not want to put 8200s on 120/125 because they're higher-mileage Central Base routes? (They're both long routes and frequent as well, so I guess they have a high amount of passenger-miles.) Or on 60' trolley routes because of the hilly sections?
  7. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Was the 174's terminus located at 9th & Stewart because it was the location of the (former) Greyhound station? Also, the 7300s look ugly as heck. Any 8200s running on the 44/49/70? How about on the 120/125? (Or is it all DE60LFs and Orions for those two routes?)
  8. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Yeah apparently there was quite a bit of bus service to Lake MacDonald/Highlands/Fairwood/Kennydale 20 years ago. Nowadays that part of the county is an affluent area of mostly detached single family homes, so I guess bus service was shifted to higher-demand areas.
  9. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I found another bonanza: more county ordinances detailing historical service changes (the Metro website only lists changes as far back as 1999) Sept 1998: https://aqua.kingcounty.gov/council/clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance 13166.pdf Sept 1996: https://aqua.kingcounty.gov/Council/Clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance 12269.pdf 101 replaced the 147 right? I haven't studied the evolution of the SE Seattle/Renton bus network in much depth but it looks like the 42 has gone through a lot of changes since 1973. Am I correct in saying that the areas of Lake MacDonald/Kennydale/East Renton Highlands formerly served by 106/107 (until 1998) and 147 (until 1996) are now transit deserts when the 111/114 aren't running? (Which is most of the day.)
  10. 12 minute service on the 116 is a big deal. Suncrest/South Slope was one of the more ignored regions under the BC Liberals; and Big Bend/Riverway/Glenlyon (which is home to a lot of tech companies) is almost a transit desert. I wonder if the 100 will have high enough demand in the future to become another B-Line route. 7 minutes in peak is crazy. Speaking of B-Lines, I know that the plan is for 43/430/239/701 in 2019, but what about in the long term? Might the main arteries in Burnaby/New West (Willingdon, Kingsway/6th, Canada Way/8th) also deserve B-Lines to replace the 19/106/119, 130 and 123? Also, and this is just me busfanning, maybe a second north-south B-Line in Burnaby. There's no easy way of getting from Edmonds/Middlegate/Big Bend to Montecito/Greystone/SFU/Capitol Hill without a car; you have to take milk run buses (101, 133, 144) or otherwise take the Skytrain around (which may require a transfer). The convoluted street network/mostly SFH zoning in East Burnaby would definitely would make this impracticable though (not to mention the railway crossing at Cariboo Road)
  11. V3112

    New Flyer D40LF Retirement / Storage watch

    When are Horgan and Transportation Minister Claire Trevena going to greenlight the SFU gondola already? Riding the Hamilton 7200s up to Burnaby Mountain on the 144 is a painful experience.
  12. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Yeah but that's the thing Northwesterner: which routes counted as "busy" in the 80s and 90s? There were so many changes: the new high-level (1984) and low-level (1991) West Seattle Bridges, the opening of the DSTT, the 97 and 98 restructures, trolley wires returning to Fairview Ave N, I-695, the opening of Bellevue Base...it was a dynamic and ever-changing landscape. Here, I'll list out all the routes which I know for a fact that 2000s operated on, based on photos and newspaper articles I've seen: 7, old 25, 35 (lol), 36, 7_X (during weekends), 174, 194, 266, pre-2002 307, 358/359. I remember you telling me that back in the 62/68 days, sometimes the loads were large enough to warrant a 2000. (Was that out of Ryerson or North?) I've also seen photos of a 2300 on the old 136, even though the other photos of Highland Park buses I saw used 3000s or 3200s; so I could presume that 2000s were also used for certain trips. This also applies to the 23 that replaced the 136/137, I've seen a diverse mix of 2300s, 2600s, 3200s and 3600s. The revised 131 that replaced the 23 is mostly 8000s/8200s with some 3600s. Which specific city routes (this includes certain North Base routes like the 302/305 which ran on Roosevelt) were more likely to get 2000s most of the time besides the ones I mentioned (7, 36, 7_X on weekends, 174/194 (at least I *think* the 174/194 ran out of Central), 307, 358)? Were 2000s seen on the 43/44 during weekends, or was it all 3000s and later 2300s? How about the 302/305/66 and 67; did 2000s ever run on those routes? Or was it 1600s/3200s only? Stuff like that. I would be so grateful if you could fill in my knowledge gaps, since you were an operator back in the 80s and 90s. And, were there any clues that you used, back when you were an operator, to deduce when certain 40' trips on less busy routes might be overloaded? e.g. Maybe the 48 would use 2000s instead of 3000s in the afternoons when Garfield HS let out. Does this mean the 1987-2005 9 ran out of Atlantic, then got moved to Ryerson after the 49 split? Or that 4000s were placed at Ryerson for the 9?
  13. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Just to be clear (I know rickycourtney already told me this but It's nice to get a second opinion), most of these future procurement are going to the suburban bases? That is: Once the 7300s arrive at Bellevue Base, they'll displace XDE40s to South, which will displace most of South's Orions to Ryerson. Ryerson will then displace their D40LFs to North Base and retire some other coaches, leaving only a handful of 3600s left there. Therefore, the fleet at the city bases will be delineated by trolley (4300s/4500s @ Atlantic), 40' diesel (7000s @ Central, 7000s/3600s @ Ryerson), and 60' diesel (8000s/8200s @ Ryerson, 2600s/8200s @ Central), which will be the standard for years (decades?) to come. The 6200s+ and 1200s will go to Atlantic for RapidRide service, but neither the 7500s-7700s, nor the 8300s+ or any of the battery-charge procurement, will be headed to Central or Ryerson. Am I correct in this?
  14. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I said that one of the county documents I posted detailed the 1997 restructure in NE Seattle. I was wrong. This is the correct document: http://aqua.kingcounty.gov/council/clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance 12644.pdf According to Richard DeArmond (former SFU professor and trolleybus geek), the 9 was resurrected as of 6/15/1987 as a weekday only route, to combat overcrowding on the 7 between downtown Seattle and the Graham St loop. It only ran M-F until 8:30 pm (hourly) initially, but it was extended to 10:00 pm as of the Feb 1999 service change. I don't know when hourly headways on the 9 were increased to half hourly. Replaced by a diesel semi-express (still retained the routing through Cherry Hill) on 6/11/2005, the first Monday after the 7/49 split. I think it used 2300s and 2600s from Central. Did diesel 9s use 2000s (MAN SG-310), 3000s (Americana) or another kind of bus? Thanks for the history on Wayne Hom. I think his art is the basis for Metro timetable maps to this day. I would have envied his patience. What I liked about the 2300s was their imposing presence, their flip-dot signs, the small quirks like the notch at the back to fit the powerful Cummins M11 engine, that mighty roar that pnwelevator loves so much. But like you said, they were noisy, and the ride wasn't as bad as the Frankenbredas but still pretty rough. By the way, is it known which routes regularly got the 2000s, which got the 3000s, which got the 1400s, and which got other types of buses? (1600s, 1100s, etc.) I'm not counting tunnel routes or trolley routes. Here's a list of urban routes that I am assuming were primarily assigned to either the SG-310s or the 40' Americanas, based partly on photos from Peter McLaughlin and the late Zack Willhoite: 2000s: 5/54/55, 358, 11/20 (125), 15/18/21/22/56/57X, 16, 26/42, 28/39, 36 diesel, 48, 120 3000s: 8, 17/130/132 (23), 24/136/137 (131/132), 25/27, 31/68, 33/37, 60, 66, 74 (30) However, I've seen photos D60s/DE60LFs on the 17/23, as well as photos of 3200s on the 20 and 125, and 3200s/3600s on the 23, 26, 28, 131 (both pre and post RapidRide C era) and 132. I've seen a photo of a 3200 on a 136, and another photo of a 2600 on a 136. So I'm probably missing a whole lot of edge cases here. Furthermore, northwesterner, you told me that select trips on the 8 got ex-South 1850s (during the short time when the 35 footers displaced by 1100s were moved from South to Ryerson), and those Flyers ran on the 74 between UW-Sand Point before that. These are just more examples of edge cases that I don't know about.
  15. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Does Metro release ridership breakdowns on a per-route basis? e.g. Route 7 had an average weekday ridership of xyz in 2017, the total number of boardings on Route 7 was xyz in 2017. I'd especially like to see a further ridership breakdown across different times (average/total number of boardings during peak, off-peak and evening)
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