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V3112

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  1. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    If the 135 ran out of South Base, that would explain why it didn't get any interlines, while the 125 (which ran out of Central) did. It would also explain why the 174 (which also ran out of South Base) terminated near CPS instead of interlining. Well, that and it was a "horrifically long and slow route" as you might call it. I'm going by the assumption that the 139 used 30' Gilligs out of South Base, and that the 11 was also moved from Ryerson to Central in 2004. As for 631 (and 635 as a matter of fact), I don't know whether Hopelink vans get their own separate base, or such vans continue to run out of South Base. Was the 128 placed at Ryerson or South when it started in 1998? Apparently one of the Magnolia routes used to interline with the old 31 Beacon Hill? Roamer, you may know about this
  2. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Shows how much I know; I always thought the 20/120 ran out of Central. How about the other West Seattle and Highline routes (pre-1998 50, 128, 135/138, 139, 631 DART)? Central, Ryerson, South? When was the 120 moved from Ryerson to Atlantic? Photo from Zack Willhoite of a 3200 on the 174 is attached. And that brings up another question. What were the buses used in the pre-Gillig era at North and East? For some reason I don't know. Furthermore, how did Bredas end up on a non-tunnel route? I thought they were exclusively for tunnel routes. Were Central/Mercer/Jefferson the original Seattle Transit bases? And when did Atlantic stop being a trolley-only garage, and get diesels?
  3. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    The early 90s version of The Book shows a layover routing via Virginia instead of Blanchard, and skips Westlake. When did this change occur? 174_Jun1987.pdf
  4. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I saw the term CPS and my mind immediately went to Child Protective Services instead of Convention Place Station...of course, doy. The 174 didn't move into the tunnel until it reopened in 2007, I thought? The "classical routing" as I understood it was North on 4th, east on Virginia, south on 9th to the layover point NS Stewart (across from where the Seattle Children's building is). Returning to S Federal Way P&R via west on Stewart (the first stop was on the farside of the intersection, where 818 Stewart is located now), south on 2nd to reach 4th Ave S. While yes, the 174 was well-aligned with the AcRd to Convention Place, I don't think it ever ran in the tunnel until 2007. It was always via 2nd/4th using 1400s, 2000s and later 2300s (did 3000s/3200s ever see service on the 174? Not sure) Now the 194 to my knowledge has always been a tunnel route. What a bummer. How long have 2300s been running on the 120/125? It feels like decades now. Does Metro not want to put 8200s on 120/125 because they're higher-mileage Central Base routes? (They're both long routes and frequent as well, so I guess they have a high amount of passenger-miles.) Or on 60' trolley routes because of the hilly sections?
  5. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Was the 174's terminus located at 9th & Stewart because it was the location of the (former) Greyhound station? Also, the 7300s look ugly as heck. Any 8200s running on the 44/49/70? How about on the 120/125? (Or is it all DE60LFs and Orions for those two routes?)
  6. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Yeah apparently there was quite a bit of bus service to Lake MacDonald/Highlands/Fairwood/Kennydale 20 years ago. Nowadays that part of the county is an affluent area of mostly detached single family homes, so I guess bus service was shifted to higher-demand areas.
  7. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I found another bonanza: more county ordinances detailing historical service changes (the Metro website only lists changes as far back as 1999) Sept 1998: https://aqua.kingcounty.gov/council/clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance 13166.pdf Sept 1996: https://aqua.kingcounty.gov/Council/Clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance 12269.pdf 101 replaced the 147 right? I haven't studied the evolution of the SE Seattle/Renton bus network in much depth but it looks like the 42 has gone through a lot of changes since 1973. Am I correct in saying that the areas of Lake MacDonald/Kennydale/East Renton Highlands formerly served by 106/107 (until 1998) and 147 (until 1996) are now transit deserts when the 111/114 aren't running? (Which is most of the day.)
  8. 12 minute service on the 116 is a big deal. Suncrest/South Slope was one of the more ignored regions under the BC Liberals; and Big Bend/Riverway/Glenlyon (which is home to a lot of tech companies) is almost a transit desert. I wonder if the 100 will have high enough demand in the future to become another B-Line route. 7 minutes in peak is crazy. Speaking of B-Lines, I know that the plan is for 43/430/239/701 in 2019, but what about in the long term? Might the main arteries in Burnaby/New West (Willingdon, Kingsway/6th, Canada Way/8th) also deserve B-Lines to replace the 19/106/119, 130 and 123? Also, and this is just me busfanning, maybe a second north-south B-Line in Burnaby. There's no easy way of getting from Edmonds/Middlegate/Big Bend to Montecito/Greystone/SFU/Capitol Hill without a car; you have to take milk run buses (101, 133, 144) or otherwise take the Skytrain around (which may require a transfer). The convoluted street network/mostly SFH zoning in East Burnaby would definitely would make this impracticable though (not to mention the railway crossing at Cariboo Road)
  9. V3112

    New Flyer D40LF Retirement / Storage watch

    When are Horgan and Transportation Minister Claire Trevena going to greenlight the SFU gondola already? Riding the Hamilton 7200s up to Burnaby Mountain on the 144 is a painful experience.
  10. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Yeah but that's the thing Northwesterner: which routes counted as "busy" in the 80s and 90s? There were so many changes: the new high-level (1984) and low-level (1991) West Seattle Bridges, the opening of the DSTT, the 97 and 98 restructures, trolley wires returning to Fairview Ave N, I-695, the opening of Bellevue Base...it was a dynamic and ever-changing landscape. Here, I'll list out all the routes which I know for a fact that 2000s operated on, based on photos and newspaper articles I've seen: 7, old 25, 35 (lol), 36, 7_X (during weekends), 174, 194, 266, pre-2002 307, 358/359. I remember you telling me that back in the 62/68 days, sometimes the loads were large enough to warrant a 2000. (Was that out of Ryerson or North?) I've also seen photos of a 2300 on the old 136, even though the other photos of Highland Park buses I saw used 3000s or 3200s; so I could presume that 2000s were also used for certain trips. This also applies to the 23 that replaced the 136/137, I've seen a diverse mix of 2300s, 2600s, 3200s and 3600s. The revised 131 that replaced the 23 is mostly 8000s/8200s with some 3600s. Which specific city routes (this includes certain North Base routes like the 302/305 which ran on Roosevelt) were more likely to get 2000s most of the time besides the ones I mentioned (7, 36, 7_X on weekends, 174/194 (at least I *think* the 174/194 ran out of Central), 307, 358)? Were 2000s seen on the 43/44 during weekends, or was it all 3000s and later 2300s? How about the 302/305/66 and 67; did 2000s ever run on those routes? Or was it 1600s/3200s only? Stuff like that. I would be so grateful if you could fill in my knowledge gaps, since you were an operator back in the 80s and 90s. And, were there any clues that you used, back when you were an operator, to deduce when certain 40' trips on less busy routes might be overloaded? e.g. Maybe the 48 would use 2000s instead of 3000s in the afternoons when Garfield HS let out. Does this mean the 1987-2005 9 ran out of Atlantic, then got moved to Ryerson after the 49 split? Or that 4000s were placed at Ryerson for the 9?
  11. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Just to be clear (I know rickycourtney already told me this but It's nice to get a second opinion), most of these future procurement are going to the suburban bases? That is: Once the 7300s arrive at Bellevue Base, they'll displace XDE40s to South, which will displace most of South's Orions to Ryerson. Ryerson will then displace their D40LFs to North Base and retire some other coaches, leaving only a handful of 3600s left there. Therefore, the fleet at the city bases will be delineated by trolley (4300s/4500s @ Atlantic), 40' diesel (7000s @ Central, 7000s/3600s @ Ryerson), and 60' diesel (8000s/8200s @ Ryerson, 2600s/8200s @ Central), which will be the standard for years (decades?) to come. The 6200s+ and 1200s will go to Atlantic for RapidRide service, but neither the 7500s-7700s, nor the 8300s+ or any of the battery-charge procurement, will be headed to Central or Ryerson. Am I correct in this?
  12. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I said that one of the county documents I posted detailed the 1997 restructure in NE Seattle. I was wrong. This is the correct document: http://aqua.kingcounty.gov/council/clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance 12644.pdf According to Richard DeArmond (former SFU professor and trolleybus geek), the 9 was resurrected as of 6/15/1987 as a weekday only route, to combat overcrowding on the 7 between downtown Seattle and the Graham St loop. It only ran M-F until 8:30 pm (hourly) initially, but it was extended to 10:00 pm as of the Feb 1999 service change. I don't know when hourly headways on the 9 were increased to half hourly. Replaced by a diesel semi-express (still retained the routing through Cherry Hill) on 6/11/2005, the first Monday after the 7/49 split. I think it used 2300s and 2600s from Central. Did diesel 9s use 2000s (MAN SG-310), 3000s (Americana) or another kind of bus? Thanks for the history on Wayne Hom. I think his art is the basis for Metro timetable maps to this day. I would have envied his patience. What I liked about the 2300s was their imposing presence, their flip-dot signs, the small quirks like the notch at the back to fit the powerful Cummins M11 engine, that mighty roar that pnwelevator loves so much. But like you said, they were noisy, and the ride wasn't as bad as the Frankenbredas but still pretty rough. By the way, is it known which routes regularly got the 2000s, which got the 3000s, which got the 1400s, and which got other types of buses? (1600s, 1100s, etc.) I'm not counting tunnel routes or trolley routes. Here's a list of urban routes that I am assuming were primarily assigned to either the SG-310s or the 40' Americanas, based partly on photos from Peter McLaughlin and the late Zack Willhoite: 2000s: 5/54/55, 358, 11/20 (125), 15/18/21/22/56/57X, 16, 26/42, 28/39, 36 diesel, 48, 120 3000s: 8, 17/130/132 (23), 24/136/137 (131/132), 25/27, 31/68, 33/37, 60, 66, 74 (30) However, I've seen photos D60s/DE60LFs on the 17/23, as well as photos of 3200s on the 20 and 125, and 3200s/3600s on the 23, 26, 28, 131 (both pre and post RapidRide C era) and 132. I've seen a photo of a 3200 on a 136, and another photo of a 2600 on a 136. So I'm probably missing a whole lot of edge cases here. Furthermore, northwesterner, you told me that select trips on the 8 got ex-South 1850s (during the short time when the 35 footers displaced by 1100s were moved from South to Ryerson), and those Flyers ran on the 74 between UW-Sand Point before that. These are just more examples of edge cases that I don't know about.
  13. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Does Metro release ridership breakdowns on a per-route basis? e.g. Route 7 had an average weekday ridership of xyz in 2017, the total number of boardings on Route 7 was xyz in 2017. I'd especially like to see a further ridership breakdown across different times (average/total number of boardings during peak, off-peak and evening)
  14. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    Here in Vancouver there were CCF Brills from the 1950s running until 1984. March 24, 1984 to be exact. By then, all the E901As and E902s had been delivered. I couldn't find any information on what the number of the last coach was, or the route that it was on before returning to Oakridge for the last time. However, newer trolley buses (so to speak) had run alongside the Brills. In 1975, BC Hydro stripped the GE propulsion systems from a few dozen of the T-44s and placed them in D800 shells provided by Western Flyer. This gave birth to the famous "Triesel" variant of the Flyer E800 (other E800 customers, like SF MUNI, used totally brand new propulsion systems also from GE) Sort of like how Metro recycled the propulsion systems from the 10240Ts and put them in Gillig trolleys (except without the new Kiepe fibreglass poles). The recycled propulsion systems reduced the E800s' lifespan, and they were retired in 1985ish, notwithstanding a brief period in which some coaches were returned to service to handle Expo 86 demand. Between 1987-1989, these coaches had their trolley poles removed and were refitted with DD 6V71N engines, plus drivetrains from the retired D700As, then moved to Burnaby. By late 1995 they were renumbered into their permanent series (V1109-V1110, B1111-B1157). The triesels started to be retired for good some time when the 1998 D40LFs started arriving at BTC, those that weren't stored were transferred to Surrey. The last triesel trip was on B1131, on March 19, 1999. Oakridge kept V1110 (2645/5194/3152) and V1109 (2649/5198/3151), with the poles still retained, as vehicles for de-icing trolley wires. Both were preserved by TRAMS in 2001, but V1109 was resurrected during CMBC's trolleybus shortage in 2007. The coach was returned to TRAMS at a later date, and given its original number in 2013. V1110 was parted out in 2010.
  15. V3112

    King County Metro - Seattle, Washington

    I stumbled across some historical documents hosted on the King County Council website. This looks to be an early-mid 90s version of The Book: http://aqua.kingcounty.gov/council/clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance%2011033%20attachment.pdf This ordinance details the NE Seattle restructure in 1997: http://aqua.kingcounty.gov/council/clerk/OldOrdsMotions/Ordinance%2012743.pdf These were found through Google; I tried cross-referencing them with the County's legislation search page, but could only find references to Ordinance 11033 or 12743, in other ordinances. The 90s version of The Book has some interesting history: Route 19 and Route 47 still existed Showed Route 43/44 as separate routes, with Route 45X as a proposed route for the Feb. 1994 service change, so the date of this document could be pinned down to mid-late 1993 Service on 49th Ave SW/Genesee Hill was grouped into Route 56 instead of being Route 57X (I don't know if service to Genesee Hill was limited to peak-hour semi-express service before 9/98) Showed old Routes 62 and 30 going through Magnolia (the part that became new Route 31) Route 42 used to run to Renton Ave S @ 78th in Skyway (I think that part got replaced by the 107?) Still shows Route 26/28 on Westlake, with Route 17 using Dexter (plus the Route 29 Broadview-DT Blue Streak) 15/18 interlined with 22 (I'm guessing a lot of buses from Ballard terminated downtown), and 28 interlined with 56 Showed Route 6 live looping as far as S Washington St, the same routing used by Route 358 and later by the RapidRide E Line. From the "0322-A (3-80)" at the bottom of that page, I'm guessing the Route 6/21 interline was replaced with Route 16/21 in March 1980. Many routes feature a photo of the corresponding type of coach on that route. So 40' trolley routes (2, 10, 13, 14, etc.) had a 10240T, 60' trolley routes (7, 43) had an SGT-310, 60' diesel routes (36) had an SG-310, etc. It showed "Route 9". But, I was under the impression that the old #9-Broadway was absorbed in 1978 as the #7-University District via Broadway, and the route number 9 was not used again until 6/2005 (when 7N was spun off as 49) as a diesel semi-express from Aloha St to Rainier via Cherry Hill. Not only did Route 9 exist before that, apparently it was a 60' ETB route! When did this Route 9 II, so to speak, come into service? I have to say, documents like this are an interesting look back at how transit planning in Seattle looked like before Metro launched its website in 1999. Onto other news...the suburban bases have been getting all sorts of shiny new buses as of late. 7200s at Bellevue Base 3700s at Bellevue/South/North Bellevue Base will also be getting lots of 7300s, and additional 4600s South Base is getting a handful of 7300s, and all the Slow Charge Pilot buses And I was just wondering, will garages that serve urban routes (Central and Ryerson) be getting new buses anytime soon? Particularly 40 footers. Of course Atlantic Base has lots of shiny 4300s/4500s for the trolley routes, and the 8/24/26X/27/33/45/48 get shiny 8000s, but there are still shoebox 3600s, 2600s/2800s, etc. on some urban Seattle routes, while the suburban bases get brand new 40 footers. If I had to guess, maybe since a large chunk of the urban fleet is ETBs or RapidRide, 3600s and 7000s are seen as new enough for the lower-mileage urban routes (at least the ones not already covered by 60' coaches e.g. 31, 32, 38, 50), and Metro is focusing new bus procurement for the higher-mileage suburban routes. But that's only a guess. I also appreciate that plenty of urban routes come out of North Base (65, 75, 345/346, etc.), and to limit the definition of "urban" bases to Central/Ryerson/Atlantic is disingenuous. But, in my defense, the lion's share of routes that operate completely or largely within city limits, are operated out of those three particular bases. I don't know if any city routes are operated out of South Base, maybe the 106/107?
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